Are you in favour of the latest deal with the EU ?

BlindBoyGrunt said:
Do you think that voting for this deal will never get thrown back at him? Because it will, the first time he raises a question or highlights a single problem with brexit.
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Not voting for it would be thrown back as well though, as was proven by Labour's position on brexit for the last 4 years.

voting against the deal would also be thrown back at him, as being in favour of a no deal.

It was a lose, lose, lose situation if you want to buy into this nonsense that Labour should be held to account more than the Tories.
 
BoroMart said:
Not voting for it would be thrown back as well though, as was proven by Labour's position on brexit for the last 4 years.

voting against the deal would also be thrown back at him, as being in favour of a no deal.

It was a lose, lose, lose situation if you want to buy into this nonsense that Labour should be held to account more than the Tories.
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Nobody is saying that the Labour party should be held to account more than the Tories and I think you are mistaken. Abstaining on a terrible deal could in no way be thrown back at him. Voting for a terrible deal sends out one signal, that he is in favour of it. He now has no room to deny that.
It was actually a win win situation, abstain on the vote, the deal goes through and it is on record that he and his party were opposed to it.

I would say that he's messed up but I don't believe he has, he just doesn't give a toss about brexit. His remainer stance and his promise of a PV were nothing more than a device to get rid of Corbyn.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Do you think that voting for this deal will never get thrown back at him? Because it will, the first time he raises a question or highlights a single problem with brexit.
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Why and by whom though, Johnson, the media? Either way he has to deal with that as he would if he had whipped an abstain or vote against. The narrative would change to "You prefered no deal!"

It was taken to parliament, not for ratification, Johnson was not required to do that, he did it solely to point fingers at Starmer whatever way Labour voted.

Abstain : You don't even know what you want stop sitting on the fence
Vote against : You preferred no deal
Vote for: You were all for the deal a few weeks ago, you need to make your mind up

You know it is way more nuanced that that and if the electorate don't see that, they wouldn't whichever way Starmer had gone. It's a no win situation for Starmer and labour, which is why I would have allowed a conscience vote.
 
When, not if, the Tories start to undermine and reneg on the deal Labour will be able to attack them since they have voted for the deal that the Tories will be trying to destroy.
 
As a member of the silent majority- law abiding working class. I expect to get screwed by persons who put self interest above all else. That’s irrespective of what’s agreed or not. I’ll just keep chipping away trying to make the best of any situation
 
Laughing said:
Why and by whom though, Johnson, the media? Either way he has to deal with that as he would if he had whipped an abstain or vote against. The narrative would change to "You prefered no deal!"

It was taken to parliament, not for ratification, Johnson was not required to do that, he did it solely to point fingers at Starmer whatever way Labour voted.

Abstain : You don't even know what you want stop sitting on the fence
Vote against : You preferred no deal
Vote for: You were all for the deal a few weeks ago, you need to make your mind up

You know it is way more nuanced that that and if the electorate don't see that, they wouldn't whichever way Starmer had gone. It's a no win situation for Starmer and labour, which is why I would have allowed a conscience vote.
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To abstain would be to register that he regarded it as a bad deal. It would also have been a signal of his beliefs because, let's face it, nobody yet has a clue what he believes in or what he is prepared to fight for.
 
BoroMart said:
because Labour having a blaise attitude to brexit and 'sitting on the fence' didn't work in the last election. His position is clear: a) brexit is stupid, b) we can't stop it now, let's get the least harmful deal and move on
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Corbyn didn’t want to sit on the fence, it was Starmer as Brexit Secretary and his insistence on a People’s Vote that wrecked their Brexit position.

His position is disingenuous as ever. If he’d have stood up and said “It was wrong of us to try and overturn the referendum and we accept the British people have voted to leave the European Union” then at least he’s been honest.

But he isn’t. He’s being deeply dishonest stating that his choice was vote for it or no deal.

It’s a humiliating day for him and Labour. They’ve submitted to the Tories and endorsed their bad Brexit deal.

This will be used against them in the future, 100%.

This is what happens when you have a politician like Starmer who believes in nothing other than accumulation of power.
 
I think it’s a fair compromise but the proof is in the pudding and only time will tell. I’m excited to see what changes.

Would prefer we didn’t give up any of our fishing rights, it’s very short sighted to say it’s only a tiny proportion of our economy. It could be bigger and it’s also the ability to feed your population with fish indefinitely if you manage your stocks.

The common fisheries policy was a bit like me walking into your house, eating all the food in the fridge and you paying me for the privilege.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
To abstain would be to register that he regarded it as a bad deal. It would also have been a signal of his beliefs because, let's face it, nobody yet has a clue what he believes in or what he is prepared to fight for.
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I think we will have to agree to differ, you acribe different motives to his actions than I do. No point arguing which one of us is correct.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Abstaining on a terrible deal could in no way be thrown back at him.
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Vote for new deal ---> you are responsible for deal
Vote against new deal --> you don't support the 'will of the people'
Abstain --> you don't support the 'will of the people' / you didn't provide opposition / Labour don't know if they support or appose brexit

Whatever way they choose to go it will be spun as a negative.
 
BoroMart said:
Vote for new deal ---> you are responsible for deal
Vote against new deal --> you don't support the 'will of the people'
Abstain --> you don't support the 'will of the people' / you didn't vote provide opposition

Whatever way they choose to go it will be spun as a negative.
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No politician can please everybody and if he doesn't realise this then he is in the wrong job.
There is no danger to him in abstaining - the deal was going through anyway - and he is the leader of the opposition and we should know what his beliefs are. He made such a big thing about PV.
 
This is not the end of anything...just the beginning of years of negotiations. If Johnson is still there he will be able to play his nationalist, Plucky Britain striding out and defending our Sov-ten-tee from those Europeans who still wish to submerge us.
The Longest Day, Ice Cold in Alex, Dunkirk and all the other, we stood alone stuff showing almost nightly, all leading up to tonight. Cynical moi? 😉
Hope you’re all imbued with the Dunkirk spirit...certainly going to need it.
 
Centralscrutinizer said:
Gibraltar to be part of the Schengen zone now. So (correct me if I'm wrong) free movement of people in and out from Europe but UK citizens will need a visa to visit UK sovereign territory.
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Good question. If not, Schengen allows any nationality to cross borders.

PS - looks like passport control but not necessarily visa required.
 
bear66 said:
Good question. If not, Schengen allows any nationality to cross borders.
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Once inside the zone that's exactly what happens. When I were a lad, if you traveled by train between even Germany and the Netherlands, border guards would board and check everyone's papers. That doesn't happen now.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
There is no danger to him in abstaining
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Isn't the choice here a deal or No Deal? In which case why do you want him to abstain?

And wouldn't you vote for him even if he voted for the deal?

Because if you would he'd be mad not to vote for the deal, because it's one sign he's listening to those traditional Labour voters who voted for Johnson at the last election. And while I'm sure your vote is important, if he wants to be elected as Prime Minister constituencies like Tony Blairs old seat in Sedgefield are essential to win. They're no longer "bankers".

Hate to be cynical but at a guess you're never going to vote Tory, so if I was Labour leader I'd be voting for the deal because it's a no lose vote. I can excuse my vote because I don't want No Deal and I signal to my traditional working class base that I heard their cry for attention.
 
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BlindBoyGrunt said:
Once inside the zone that's exactly what happens. When I were a lad, if you traveled by train between even Germany and the Netherlands, border guards would board and check everyone's papers. That doesn't happen now.
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Travelling from West Germany to East Germany was even more fun! (Bottle of whisky in the boot sped up border paperwork!)
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
When I were a lad, if you traveled by train between even Germany and the Netherlands, border guards would board and check everyone's papers
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When I were a lad - that's pre-Shengen by the way (i.e. pre-1995) - I could cross to and from France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany at reasonable speed in my car. Only at the Swiss border was I ever checked. Even when traveling into Austria from Germany there was no check as far as I recall. Though there were border guards. Austria joined the EU in 1995 although I think they joined Shengen in 1997.

The only exception I recall when when I was traveling to Helsinki every week in 2001 (just before Finland joined Shengen). On the flight to Finland we stopped in Stockholm so had to disembark the plane and go through the formality of walking through border control.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
No politician can please everybody and if he doesn't realise this then he is in the wrong job.
There is no danger to him in abstaining - the deal was going through anyway - and he is the leader of the opposition and we should know what his beliefs are. He made such a big thing about PV.
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Don’t you think it’s time to unite behind Brexit? It was decided by a democratic vote and endorsed by Johnson’s election win largely fought on the single issue of getting it done.

We have to look to the future don’t we? Starmer‘s energy would be better spent attacking Johnson on the Covid shambles, people going hungry, the wealth gap and unemployment. The EU thing has been a Tory indulgence aided by the media, there is nothing in it for Labour.
 
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