Another step on the road to little insular England

JackG said:
The 'blood on your hands' bit is fair comment. 'Self-centred b***ds' is clearly abuse as it tars all Tory voters with the same brush. At least some of them may have voted Tory on a lesser-of-2-evils basis.
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All Tory have blood on their hands. Does that mean all Labour voters who voted for Tony Blair have blood on their hands?
I don't believe either do.
 
BillyBoyStu said:
All Tory have blood on their hands. Does that mean all Labour voters who voted for Tony Blair have blood on their hands?
I don't believe either do.
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Not really, Blair (and the Labour MP's) and parliament (Labour majority) thought it was too big a decision to just go ahead and do, even based on the best UK intelligence we had, which it turns out was dodgy intelligence coming from the USA.

So, as it was important, Blair gave a vote to parliament on "the war", effectively as the Tories wanted and supported it, guess how the votes went?
Y/ N/ Abstain/ Tellers/ Total/ percentage voting yes to go to war in Iraq
Labout 254/ 84/ 69/ 2/ 409/ 62%
Tory 146/ 2/ 17/ 1/ 166/ 88%

So, the Tories basically wanted the war more than Labour did (as a percentage of their MP's), and Labour couldn't have done it without the Tories help, they didn't have the majority for it, they were about 130 short, but thanks to the 146 Tories and the DUP it got through.

Also, you're talking here from hindsight. The best info we had was that Saddam was up to no good, which he certainly wasn't, but the degree of "no good" probably wasn't as much as expected, but we were relying on the USA for most of this info too. Most of the public support was in favour of the war too, more in favour than they were of brexit. Easy to say now that it was wrong to do it, with hindsight.

People on the side of Labour/ Remain/ Economists/ Trade specialists etc have been saying long in advance of the damage the Tories and Brexit would do, and now it's clearly materialising, or materialised. Also, it's materialised in the absolute worst economic way, which the Tories did not allow a vote on, and used their massive majority to push this "worst way" through. Now as a result of this, they're becoming worse and worse, which is bad for those who are skint, or those that need it most, or those that need public healthcare etc.

Also, Blair did a damn sight more "good" during his time than these Tory clowns will.

Also, loads of current Tory voters, also voted for Blair too back then, people tend to vote more selfishly the more they get older/ more wealth etc. I wouldn't be surprised if half the current Tory voters also voted for Blair. But, loads of current Labour voters have never even voted for Blair, as they won't have been old enough to vote. All current Tories (as per the last election in 2019) voted for BJ though, no worming away from that.
 
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Did anyone see Ch4 News's report last night about child poverty and the cynical way the tories have cut funding,some places up by 80% on child welfare ?
One voulunteer said they had a crying room for staff after visiting some of these families....kids sleeing on wooden pallets with no carpets on the floor,heartbreaking stories by the thousands......people who voted tory should be made to watch that and if they are not left with a sickening feeling in their stomachs,then yes, i'd call them heartless uncaring scum
 
Andy_W said:
Not really, Blair (and the Labour MP's) and parliament (Labour majority) thought it was too big a decision to just go ahead and do, even based on the best UK intelligence we had, which it turns out was dodgy intelligence coming from the USA.

So, as it was important, Blair gave a vote to parliament on "the war", effectively as the Tories wanted and supported it, guess how the votes went?
Y/ N/ Abstain/ Tellers/ Total/ percentage voting yes to go to war in Iraq
Labout 254/ 84/ 69/ 2/ 409/ 62%
Tory 146/ 2/ 17/ 1/ 166/ 88%

So, the Tories basically wanted the war more than Labour did (as a percentage of their MP's), and Labour couldn't have done it without the Tories help, they didn't have the majority for it, they were about 130 short, but thanks to the 146 Tories and the DUP it got through.

Also, you're talking here from hindsight. The best info we had was that Saddam was up to no good, which he certainly wasn't, but the degree of "no good" probably wasn't as much as expected, but we were relying on the USA for most of this info too. Most of the public support was in favour of the war too, more in favour than they were of brexit. Easy to say now that it was wrong to do it, with hindsight.

People on the side of Labour/ Remain/ Economists/ Trade specialists etc have been saying long in advance of the damage the Tories and Brexit would do, and now it's clearly materialising, or materialised. Also, it's materialised in the absolute worst economic way, which the Tories did not allow a vote on, and used their massive majority to push this "worst way" through. Now as a result of this, they're becoming worse and worse, which is bad for those who are skint, or those that need it most, or those that need public healthcare etc.

Also, Blair did a damn sight more "good" during his time than these Tory clowns will.

Also, loads of current Tory voters, also voted for Blair too back then, people tend to vote more selfishly the more they get older/ more wealth etc. I wouldn't be surprised if half the current Tory voters also voted for Blair. But, loads of current Labour voters have never even voted for Blair, as they won't have been old enough to vote. All current Tories (as per the last election in 2019) voted for BJ though, no worming away from that.
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I've seen both Labour and Conservative Voters been accused of "Having blood on their hands" on here.
I haven't done any accusations myself, think its an unbelievable vile statement to put onto millions and millions of people (both labour and conservative).
My point was that abuse is abuse and saying lines like that is abuse.
I'm not political, just anti abuse.
 
BillyBoyStu said:
I've seen both Labour and Conservative Voters been accused of "Having blood on their hands" on here.
I haven't done any accusations myself, think its an unbelievable vile statement to put onto millions and millions of people (both labour and conservative).
My point was that abuse is abuse and saying lines like that is abuse.
I'm not political, just anti abuse.
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I disagree, in respect to the saying "they have blood to their hands", as it's a term to reflect that a group of people have to take responsibility for their actions, or who they elect on their behalf to carry out actions. I don't think the saying was intended to mean that a specific person is actually covered in blood and has murdered someone.

People are partly responsible if they vote for someone and they end up in power, and if they're told over and over and over again that they will do damage, then they have to accept a portion of the blame. Collectively all the voters have a share in all of the blame, that share gets divided up and has to go somewhere, it doesn't vanish.

If you vote for a clown and then he acts like a clown, then it is what it is, you got what you voted for. People then have a right to defend those actually physically suffering, as a result of the policies enacted, in this case being the foreign aid cut. I would say those losing foreign aid are being abused more than some people being made aware of what they voted for.
 
BillyBoyStu said:
I've seen both Labour and Conservative Voters been accused of "Having blood on their hands" on here.
I haven't done any accusations myself, think its an unbelievable vile statement to put onto millions and millions of people (both labour and conservative).
My point was that abuse is abuse and saying lines like that is abuse.
I'm not political, just anti abuse.
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You're simply trying to deflect the debate away from what the thread is about.

Make a new thread if you want to debate another subject.

What's happening is appalling, do you agree or not?
 
Just don’t agree with abuse.
Didn’t realise that there strict rules about calling it out.
Sorry, I have now been told.
 
Corcaigh_the_Cat said:
You're simply trying to deflect the debate away from what the thread is about.

Make a new thread if you want to debate another subject.

What's happening is appalling, do you agree or not?
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Yes agree 100% that the government was wrong in reducing the foreign aid budget. To have something promised in your manifesto and then change it is I agree appalling.
As a poster previously said, 0.7% of of a reduced GDP automatically leads to reduced budget anyway.

Would say theres quite a few threads on here that deviate from the original thread title - not that was what I was trying to do - as I've said before I was just calling out abuse, others kept on trying to explain why this abuse was OK. The book, FMTTM, Teesside Urban Legends I seem to remember has quite a few threads that deviate?

Are you part of the Admin team, Corcaigh, or should I ask this on another thread?
 
The strange thing is everyone, and I mean everyone, thought that Johnson was an utter idiot. Prior to Brexit everyone would laugh at the idea of that buffoon being PM.

Screenshot 2021-07-16 at 08.03.59.png

Then once the Brexiteers had the idea that he might just get Brexit through he was the best thing since sliced bread. Thousands proclaimed he was just what we needed! I remember them saying if we hope enough things will get better - like some kind of cult worshippers.

And here we are. We have a racist in charge with a cabinet of idiots who are all keeping quiet as Johnson does immense damage to our country and it's reputation around the world. And whilst this is occurring Johnson is presiding over the most shambolic Covid response in the West that he has personally caused.

The UK death toll could be as high as 209,000 (https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1188) but no Tory MP seems too bothered that we are the only country in the world to be abandoning all legal Covid restrictions when we have rising infection rates. And our infection rates are the highest in the world. Higher than India. Higher than Brazil. Higher than Iran, Russia, the US...

Screenshot 2021-07-16 at 08.12.24.png

As previously mentioned on this thread, 'The Experts' predicted how damaging Brexit would be and it is coming to fruition. But despite this Johnson was voted in to get his hard Brexit through and effectively sabotaging the Union. And the English voters lapped it up.

So, I don't think that all Tory voters have blood on their hands, they could have never foresaw the pandemic, and even if they could they might have opted for some other corrupt minister to be PM, but they did all vote for Johnson and that is why I think this current crop of Conservative voters are selfish and stupid. But it's not all their fault, after all Labour put up an unelectable candidate against him. The job is fu***d.
 
MolteniArcore said:
So, I don't think that all Tory voters have blood on their hands, they could have never foresaw the pandemic, and even if they could they might have opted for some other corrupt minister to be PM, but they did all vote for Johnson and that is why I think this current crop of Conservative voters are selfish and stupid. But it's not all their fault, after all Labour put up an unelectable candidate against him. The job is fu***d.
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Agree with 99% of that, but I'll just quote the last paragraph as the only bit I don't fully agree with is the last line.

The only people who thought JC was unelectable were some of the tory voters (discounting other parties, but at least they never voted Tory), not all of them, but some just voted Tory as they didn't like him. I get that and that point alone is totally fine, I thought he was a very weak leader too, and it annoyed me having to vote for him, but the key thing is I didn't go and vote for someone 10x worse. If JC was unelectable, then why was BJ electable, with his track record, with the Tories track record, and the economic disaster forecasted? It was the perfect storm. People voted for a Cat 5 hurricane as they thought a Cat 2 one was too damaging, it makes no sense.

People voting for the clown and his party deserve to be called out (as a group), in the defence of those who are suffering much, much more harm as a result. Loads of people voting Tory are even basically voting for financial self-harm, yet they don't even know it. It's a messed up system, but it's enabled by messed up people.

It really would have helped if Labour had a better leader back then though, it would have taken this misunderstanding of degrees of severity away.

Like I said a few months back, I think the Tories were having their peak back then (when we were ahead on vaccines) but their approval would get worse from summer onwards (as EU vaccines improve, their economies improve faster, and brexit bites us), and it's looking to be the case. Just need Starmer to time it right and step on the gas at the right time, which will probably be around Autumn/ Winter, he likely won't get a better opportunity.
 
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