All the Tories out this morning

BoroMart said:
it's all relative, many nations would view us as far right, I would classify it as firm right and the direction of travel has accelerated for a decade.
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No, it's not relative. It simply isn't far-right at all. You don't use your own personal reference point to decide. It's this level of stupidity and ignorance that results in everyone you disagree with being pigeon-holed as an extremest and a complete inability to compromise.
 
Why is the manifesto quoted do often? 99.8% of people never read it.if you have to accept all of a manifesto to vote for a party no one will ever get elected.

I have said this before I would be happy with 75% of labours manifesto if it meant we had a Labour government.
Muttley said:
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by that? You know help me with my "education"?

I set out a reasonable reply to your point and you come back with what you probably think is a clever one-liner. You asked me if I thought Corbyn a "loyal" Labour MP. I gave an answer commenting on his character. I'm not sure what you mean by "loyal" I guess you mean an MP who consistently follows the party line? What I don't know is why you think that would be a good or a bad thing? Take the Iraq War, Corbyn voted against it at every opportunity. He was right to do that. Perhaps that is not "loyal" but it is certainly being a good MP.
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I told you that I have only ever voted Labour, for some reason you did not understand that.
 
MFP said:
No, it's not relative. It simply isn't far-right at all. You don't use your own personal reference point to decide. It's this level of stupidity and ignorance that results in everyone you disagree with being pigeon-holed as an extremest and a complete inability to compromise.
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It is a well agreed political theory that extremism IS based on your reference point, it's called the Overton Window.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#:~:text=The Overton window is the,is named after Joseph P.

But thank you for highlighting what one of the key problems facing our nation in this internet age is. People that speak with confidence about things they are utterly ignorant about. You speak with incredulity at the concept of far left and far right NOT being relative, but it's accepted psychological and political theory, as I have just proven. You'll probably double down because of your belief that you are smarter than you actually are.

You have additionally highlighted the blight of Dunning-Kruger Syndrome that has led this country further and further to the right. The right winger elite, have utilised social media to play on these inherent intellectual and psychological flaws in people like you. They've stoked your prejudices and your perceived smartness gives you the confidence to talk nonsense with an undeserved authority. There are too many luddites like you in this country, with your inflated egos, telling yourself that you know about trade deals, and immigration effects, and British superiority, and 'wokeness', antifi and socialism and all the other demonised left policies, and your ignorant post has just proven that you are clearly not equipped with the tools to analyse these concepts objectively and realise that you are a pawn of the right wing elite. It would be f*&$#n hilarious, if it wasn't so tragic, cheers
 
That's a remarkable rant to be fair. I'm a pawn of the right wing elite for stating the Tories aren't far-right? How did you come to this conclusion?

Political discourse is in ruination because of attitudes demonstrated by you, not I. That's why Corbyn gets smeared a communist and the US Democrats are presented as socialist bogeymen. Get out of your social media echo chamber.
 
MFP said:
That's a remarkable rant to be fair. I'm a pawn of the right wing elite for stating the Tories aren't far-right? How did you come to this conclusion?

Political discourse is in ruination because of attitudes demonstrated by you, not I. That's why Corbyn gets smeared a communist and the US Democrats are presented as socialist bogeymen. Get out of your social media echo chamber.
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Corbyn gets smeared far left because the overton window has moved rapidly to the right in the last decade. You've been asleep while it's happened. I knew you would double down, I can read the unfounded confidence in your posts.
 
Can you read the seething arrogance in your own posts?

And who are these "many nations" that would see us as far-right? Try actually answering a question instead of dodging like last time.
 
MFP said:
Can you read the seething arrogance in your own posts?

And who are these "many nations" that would see us as far-right? Try actually answering a question instead of dodging like last time.
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Hey I'm not the one who thinks that Overton Window doesn't exist despite it being a thing with academics in this field for quite some time. So you're sticking by your claim that the concept of extreme political views isn't relative?! The ego is strong in this one.

My 'arrogance' isn't unfounded, I've proven I know a thing or two, you've shown ignorance of proven and accepted concepts.

The window has rapidly moved right over the last 4 years for significant portion of the population, ideas that 15-20 years ago would be seen as abhorrent are now viewed as mainstream. This same thing happened in Germany, took about 10 years for extreme views to become normalised there too. They had one of the most liberal and advanced democracies in the world at that point, and it was dismantled as the average Josef was manipulated into hate of moderation, foreigners were demonised, and the concept of the essence of being German was being lost. This allowed people to start moving more and more right, but stepwise so that the lurch was never too fast to be noticed. The very same thing has been happening here with Farage, Johnson, Tommy Robinson and others moving the window.

I didn't 'dodge your question', I presumed it wasn't a serious question, but ok, if we must do this idiocy.....examples of countries that think our government is extreme, well conversations with friends in Sweden, Germany, Portugal and US (intelligent liberal ones) are evidence of this. There are plenty that won't see us extreme, but that isn't the point. There is a growing international consensus partly from our Brexit vote and subsequent stance, partly our racist and incompetent leader, partly the increase in racism, partly our preparedness to break international law, partly our support for the grotesque Saudi government and other evidence such as the UN report on growing inequality leading to masses of people going below the poverty line. These all have an impact on our international standing, that might be a surprise to you, I don't know, but it's real.

So YOUR turn not to dodge, are you seriously doubling down on the idea that extremist views isn't relative? I.e. you know better than experts in the field of psychology and politics and you are saying there is no such thing as the Overton Window?


The cherry on this particular lack of self awareness cake, is that you started off this t*t-for-tat between us by calling me stupid and ignorant (because you didn't understand what overton window is) and then said that means that I have an inability to compromise (even though you jumped to the extreme of calling me stupid and ignorant, because YOU didn't understand a valid concept)......you can't make this up, you are a prime example of why we are becoming extreme right and you can't see it. I'm not even left, I'm centrist, pragmatic, balanced, I don't want massive taxes and social systems, but I don't want kids starving either. I don't want gender quotas in the office, but I want poor, black and gay people to have the same chance of a job as a white middle class guy. I have balance, which is why I can see the extremism in society.
 
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You've assumed I don't think the Overton Window exists based on nothing more than the fact I've called out your stupidity and ignorance. The issue here is clear; you're an extremist masquerading as a moderate/centrist who is incapable of any reasoned thinking outside of your hug box because you're supported by people of the same ilk and expose yourself to nothing that contradicts your political world view, hence you angry word salad outburst here.

I asked you for examples of these many nations that would view the UK as far-right, you've picked a grand total of four, and your response is anecdotes from a few friends. In what world do you think that would hold up as valid? Friends in Germany; a nation ran by a union of Christian conservative centre-right/right-wing parties? A nation with significant support for AfD; an actual far-right German nationalist outfit steeped in Neo-Nazism? Sweden with Akesson leading a Swedish socially conservative nationalist opposition party? And the US doesn't even need mentioning.

You're telling me your friends perceive this nation as far-right through their own reference point living in nations that legitimately have significant right-wing and far-right representation, of which makes the Tories here look meek in comparison.

ideas that 15-20 years ago would be seen as abhorrent are now viewed as mainstream.
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By all means list them.
 
I know we don't have a far right government in the terms of Pinochet (although Thatcher was a big friend and admirer of his work) or Franco, to use just two examples. If we did, there would be no parliament or debate and we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, my reference to far right is based on the body politic of the UK. Just as Corbyn was on the left of a left wing party, so Johnson and his cabinet are definitely on the right of an already right wing party, just as Thatcher was. That's just a fact. The electorate rejected the one and embraced the other.
 
HarryVegas said:
I know we don't have a far right government in the terms of Pinochet (although Thatcher was a big friend and admirer of his work) or Franco, to use just two examples. If we did, there would be no parliament or debate and we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, my reference to far right is based on the body politic of the UK. Just as Corbyn was on the left of a left wing party, so Johnson and his cabinet are definitely on the right of an already right wing party, just as Thatcher was. That's just a fact. The electorate rejected the one and embraced the other.
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They only embraced the other by virtue of an undemocratic electoral system.
 
MFP said:
You've assumed I don't think the Overton Window exists based on nothing more than the fact I've called out your stupidity and ignorance.
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...and with this you show exactly what you are, a disingenuous, and arrogant fool. You started your abuse by calling me stupid and ignorant because I stated extremist is relative (to the norm in your society). I proved that to be the case, as it is accepted theory through the Overton Window. I ask you a straight question if you are denying the Overton window But instead of a straight answer you give an allusion that you believe in it, but without quite committing?! That is just moral cowardice. You can't have it both ways. Either you don't believe in it, in which case you are an idiot that thinks he knows better than psychologists and political analysts that fully accept the idea OR you're an idiot because you were abusive to me over something you accept is right, but you are too arrogant to admit it.

The Overton Window defines the accepted tolerances of acceptable political belief and thus where extremist views begin and end. It is exactly what I stated at the beginning if this 'debate'.

It's quite an easy a concept to understand. 300 years ago the Overton Window was that hanging criminals, burning witches and beheading anyone that peed the king off were all the accepted norm. As time changes, 300 years passes, these are now viewed as extremist views. That is a nice simple example of how societal norms change and the Overton Window moves. This might be over your head, but that doesn't make it less true.

Anyway, enough wasting my time with you. It's quite clear you are intellectually dishonest, refusing to accept you jumped in heavy handed on something you didn't understand and now you are refusing to admit it, I'm making it a resolution to not waste time on Dunning-Kruger sufferers like you. blocked, don't bother.
 
Same_as_before said:
Why is the manifesto quoted do often? 99.8% of people never read it
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Anyone that votes for a party without at least seeing a summary of the manifesto is an idiot and should have their vote removed. Politics isn't The X Factor, it shouldn't be relegated to a popularity contest based around who is the most entertaining in front of a camera.
 
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Which brings me nicely to something I have banged on about for ages - politics should be a core subject in schools.

As for MFP, hmm, it's not worth engaging. Anyone who doesn't see that the UK is moving to the right is clearly nuts. If you still believe that Johnsons political agenda is right centrist then again you are nuts.

There was an article written about a year ago on how you move a nation from central policies to extreme policies, left or right, and it used Nazi Germany as an example and referenced what people accept as the norm, the overton window, heavily.

The article claimed that you suggest extreme policies then wind them back a little until they are acceptable to the masses. Then a little while later you repeat the exercise. In fairly short order you can push very extreme ideas into normalised thinking. Hitler didn't start by suggesting the Germans gassed all the Jews. He started by blaming them for Germany's economic problems. Once that was accepted he started talking about Jewish boycotts, then segregation, then dispossession, evacuation and then the final solution.

If anyone doesn't see that echoed in the UK with immigrants is blind, stupid or amoral.
 
Laughing said:
Which brings me nicely to something I have banged on about for ages - politics should be a core subject in schools.

As for MFP, hmm, it's not worth engaging. Anyone who doesn't see that the UK is moving to the right is clearly nuts.

The article claimed that you suggest extreme policies then wind them back a little until they are acceptable to the masses.
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Spot on, I'm glad my daughter is doing Politics A level, and looking to do it at degree next year, but the majority of her school friends haven't got a scooby about politics. MFP yup, he's blocked for being a dishonest idiot. I have no beef with people for ignorance on a subject, I myself am ignorant on much in life, but being ignorant and dishonest about it makes you a bore MFP mate.

The accelerated swing in norms has clearly been going on for a while, the demonisation of the 'looney lefts' is really a demonisation of empathy. Lack of empathy is sociopathy. Our society is slowly embracing sociopathic hatred as the norm, just as Germany did in the 1930s.
 
BoroMart said:
Anyone that votes for a party without at least seeing a summary of the manifesto is an idiot and should have their vote removed. Politics isn't The X Factor, it shouldn't be relegated to a popularity contest based around who is the most entertaining in front of a camera.
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No they shouldn’t. The great thing about this country is everyone has a say. Voting is the greatest right you can have. Any person can vote for any party, MP, referendum outcome they so wish and for any reason they choose. It is not up to you, me or anyone else to tell someone how to vote, nor is it up to you, me or anyone else to criticise someones reasoning for how they vote. If your advocating that you should have some standard IQ in order to vote then you are advocating censorship and removing the greatest right each person in this country has. Luckily we dont live in your world.
 
Boromart on the vote issue you are clearly wrong. That is not how democracy works, and you know that. Democracy works because collective decision making tends to be better when compared to, even, expert decisions, I can't remember the name of that theory, but it is well tested.
 
Laughing said:
Boromart on the vote issue you are clearly wrong. That is not how democracy works, and you know that. Democracy works because collective decision making tends to be better when compared to, even, expert decisions, I can't remember the name of that theory, but it is well tested.
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The problem is that democracy breaks when misinformation outweighs information, we are in the misinformation age and 150 years of modern democracy is showing real fractures.
 
Laughing said:
Boromart on the vote issue you are clearly wrong. That is not how democracy works, and you know that. Democracy works because collective decision making tends to be better when compared to, even, expert decisions, I can't remember the name of that theory, but it is well tested.
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The Wisdom of Crowds?
 
BoroMart said:
...and with this you show exactly what you are, a disingenuous, and arrogant fool. You started your abuse by calling me stupid and ignorant because I stated extremist is relative (to the norm in your society). I proved that to be the case, as it is accepted theory through the Overton Window. I ask you a straight question if you are denying the Overton window But instead of a straight answer you give an allusion that you believe in it, but without quite committing?! That is just moral cowardice. You can't have it both ways. Either you don't believe in it, in which case you are an idiot that thinks he knows better than psychologists and political analysts that fully accept the idea OR you're an idiot because you were abusive to me over something you accept is right, but you are too arrogant to admit it.

The Overton Window defines the accepted tolerances of acceptable political belief and thus where extremist views begin and end. It is exactly what I stated at the beginning if this 'debate'.

It's quite an easy a concept to understand. 300 years ago the Overton Window was that hanging criminals, burning witches and beheading anyone that peed the king off were all the accepted norm. As time changes, 300 years passes, these are now viewed as extremist views. That is a nice simple example of how societal norms change and the Overton Window moves. This might be over your head, but that doesn't make it less true.

Anyway, enough wasting my time with you. It's quite clear you are intellectually dishonest, refusing to accept you jumped in heavy handed on something you didn't understand and now you are refusing to admit it, I'm making it a resolution to not waste time on Dunning-Kruger sufferers like you. blocked, don't bother.
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Intellectually dishonest from someone who, without a shred of irony, keeps squeaking about Dunning-Kruger Syndrome and constantly dodges questions because he's spent the thread seething about be called stupid and ignorance, but with every posts supports this.

"It's all relative" is what you used and when challenged expand on your claim that many nations see the UK as far-right have completely failed just as you failed to justify the claim that ideas 15-20 ago that were abhorrent are mainstream now. And I suppose you have to question the proclaimed intelligence of your US pals if they see this nation's government as far-right relative to the situation in the US under Trump; a man you implicitly has supported and excused white supremacy.
 
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