MolteniArcore
Well-known member
The Tories appear to be in favour of higher taxes. I think Labour will be positioning themselves to reduce the tax burden on workers this next election.
Aggression.
- Thread starter NoloBoro
- Start date
The Tories appear to be in favour of higher taxes. I think Labour will be positioning themselves to reduce the tax burden on workers this next election.
ThatFragranceGuy
Well-known member
I love how any mention of the nhs now is met with derision on Twitter because a few staff made tiktoks, in an attempt to deflect from partygate. Seen this loads over last few days
SmallTown
Well-known member
Yeah, these guys do this: Try whatever dirty trick they can to distract from partygate and instigate a pile on.
No wonder people are angry: This is our own government doing this. Our own government openly orchestrating attacks on it's nations healthcare workers to distract from the fact the government themselves broke the law.
Bound to make people ticked off.
Ex Footy Legs
Well-known member
This is quite possibly the best post I have read on here - ever.
Well done Fabio.
You’ve articulated the ‘game’ being played out in this country perfectly. Not many people are aware of everything you’ve outlined here.
Ex Footy Legs
Well-known member
On top of and in addition to Fabio’s brilliant post is that the Tories (and this is unique to them and their tactics of maintaining power) wait for labour or starmer to challenge something like the state of the NHS or Education or the Police service and they shout from the rooftops ; Look, look…you’re .running this country down….there’s so much good and you choose to run this country down…. Another Tory tactic of minimisation-of the massive issues this country faces BECAUSE OF 12 YEARS OF TORY RULE(DECAY)
This disappointing aspect is the lightweight response by labour to this lie….
Labour and Lib Dems should be shouting back…in response….I love the country and I’m naming this ROT because I LOVE THIS COUNTRY. Ignoring this rot means you’re no patriot. TORIES ARE TRAITORS of the UK public and the fabric of a harmonious society.
End of.
Funky_Chicken
Well-known member
Are you surprised ? People are frustrated and angry after having two years of normal life taken from them, and now they’re finding it increasingly difficult just to make ends meet because of the rising costs of living. It’s all part of the reset, orchestrated by the WEF WHO and UN amongst others. Just have a read of agenda 21, these lot are just getting started on us, there is so much more **** coming our way over the next few years as they force in biometric ID’s and a cashless society onto us
Ex Footy Legs
Well-known member
Another bury your head in the sand and blame someone else….Tory tactic. Brexit is biting us more and more in an undoubted cost of living crisis
Also, immigrants cross the channel like we’ve never seen before
Why ?
Because when we were in the EU the French actually protected the beaches and now they basically turn a blind eye given the Uk are a 3rd country.
O dear. Not something a ‘get your country back’ brexiteer wants to hear
Vote leave and stop the migrants over running us…o dear, brexit sort of done….and immigration WORSE THAN EVER. Tories lies about brexit. Take heed.
sherlock
Well-known member
Idiot.
Muttley
Well-known member
Red_is_best
Well-known member
Lots of excellent and astute socio-political insight on this thread that does much to explain the current anger in society and gives a broad context and answer to the OP’s question. Agree with all of it.
But I think this goes back much further. I believe Thatcher started this with her so-called aspirational politics and the destruction of our traditional industries: manufacturing, coal, steel, engineering. God knows the loss-making state-owned industries in the 70s and early 80’s desperately needed reform, but they were wiped out for an ideology. More importantly, the communities built around them, where people cared about and looked out for each other, went with the industries.
Thatcher, in the guise of improving our lot, replaced this with a remorseless pursuit of wealth and self-interest. Remember she said there is “no such thing as society,” only individuals, “and people must look to themselves first.”
So began a gradual erosion of common decency, tolerance, consideration of others, and general good manners. You just couldn’t care about such things and be a YUPPIE at the same time.
To my mind that erosion of values has just continued, perpetuated by successive governments that value entrepreneurism over public service, self-achievement over the greater good. People become attuned to this way of thinking and start to, more and more, become self-serving and dispassionate about others.
It’s not surprising then that, in this bubble of “I want matters most”, offence is readily taken and aggression becomes a common response.
The whole thing needs to be turned around and a new balance between the “old” ways and “the now” needs to be found. Or, as others have said, my-our- children are the ones who will suffer most.
But I think this goes back much further. I believe Thatcher started this with her so-called aspirational politics and the destruction of our traditional industries: manufacturing, coal, steel, engineering. God knows the loss-making state-owned industries in the 70s and early 80’s desperately needed reform, but they were wiped out for an ideology. More importantly, the communities built around them, where people cared about and looked out for each other, went with the industries.
Thatcher, in the guise of improving our lot, replaced this with a remorseless pursuit of wealth and self-interest. Remember she said there is “no such thing as society,” only individuals, “and people must look to themselves first.”
So began a gradual erosion of common decency, tolerance, consideration of others, and general good manners. You just couldn’t care about such things and be a YUPPIE at the same time.
To my mind that erosion of values has just continued, perpetuated by successive governments that value entrepreneurism over public service, self-achievement over the greater good. People become attuned to this way of thinking and start to, more and more, become self-serving and dispassionate about others.
It’s not surprising then that, in this bubble of “I want matters most”, offence is readily taken and aggression becomes a common response.
The whole thing needs to be turned around and a new balance between the “old” ways and “the now” needs to be found. Or, as others have said, my-our- children are the ones who will suffer most.
NoloBoro
Well-known member
As I started this thread, I tell this (not very interesting) story to explain what I meant.
I was in a car park, a multi storey.
I was in my car, the guy in front had left his mobile phone, a canned drink and a shopping bag on the roof of his car.
I beeped the car horn to tell him, he turned in his seat and started shaking his fist, swearing at me.
As the road split into two lanes, he was turning left as I was turning right, he broke and wound his window down, no doubt to either invite me to fight to the death or give me more abuse, the items on his roof rolled down, cascading down his windscreen.
I wound my window down, smiled and said ‘hey pal, you left your things on the roof, I was trying to attract your attention’. He was incandescent with rage.
That’s the sort of aggression I was referring to, what makes people behave in that way?
Ive noticed behaviour like that when people interact with each other, folks seem a hair’s breadth away from losing their sh1t over nothing.
I was in a car park, a multi storey.
I was in my car, the guy in front had left his mobile phone, a canned drink and a shopping bag on the roof of his car.
I beeped the car horn to tell him, he turned in his seat and started shaking his fist, swearing at me.
As the road split into two lanes, he was turning left as I was turning right, he broke and wound his window down, no doubt to either invite me to fight to the death or give me more abuse, the items on his roof rolled down, cascading down his windscreen.
I wound my window down, smiled and said ‘hey pal, you left your things on the roof, I was trying to attract your attention’. He was incandescent with rage.
That’s the sort of aggression I was referring to, what makes people behave in that way?
Ive noticed behaviour like that when people interact with each other, folks seem a hair’s breadth away from losing their sh1t over nothing.
Red_is_best
Well-known member
I liked not because you were subjected to that abuse, but it because it was funny. Better still if he had driven over his shopping and phone. What an asshole he was.
Sadly, some people are just like that; it’s their natural state. There have always been folk like that and always will be. Not really sure they deserve our time in trying to understand why they behave like that? Seems like they are just programmed that way.
Sadly, some people are just like that; it’s their natural state. There have always been folk like that and always will be. Not really sure they deserve our time in trying to understand why they behave like that? Seems like they are just programmed that way.
NoloBoro
Well-known member
Hey that’s ok, I giggled all the way home, part of me wanted to teach him a lesson, it was only afterwards that I started wondering why people behave that way.
There seems to be an edge to people that wasn’t there before, the world seems to have gotten harder.
I know it’s an expansive question but how do we make things better?
Ex Footy Legs
Well-known member
Read Red is bests post above. That Ed how it started and I fully agree with his post.
Thatcher created this ; me first you last mentality
Which isn’t a good recipe for a harmonious society
locomansimon
Well-known member
Bang on mate, Thatcher created greed is good and it's out of control !
Millbrook
Well-known member
Thatchers actual quote;
I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand “I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!” or “I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!” “I am homeless, the Government must house me!” and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation and it is, I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—“It is all right. We joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it”. That was the objective, but somehow there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people: “All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!” but when people come and say: “But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!” You say: “Look! It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!”
There is also something else I should say to them: “If that does not give you a basic standard, you know, there are ways in which we top up the standard. You can get your housing benefit.”
But it went too far. If children have a problem, it is society that is at fault. There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate. And the worst things we have in life, in my view, are where children who are a great privilege and a trust—they are the fundamental great trust, but they do not ask to come into the world, we bring them into the world, they are a miracle, there is nothing like the miracle of life—we have these little innocents and the worst crime in life is when those children, who would naturally have the right to look to their parents for help, for comfort, not only just for the food and shelter but for the time, for the understanding, turn round and not only is that help not forthcoming, but they get either neglect or worse than that, cruelty.
I'll get the tin hat out but if a labour politician had said this would it have been interpreted the same way given the whole context in which it was said.
I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand “I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!” or “I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!” “I am homeless, the Government must house me!” and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation and it is, I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—“It is all right. We joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it”. That was the objective, but somehow there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people: “All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!” but when people come and say: “But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!” You say: “Look! It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!”
There is also something else I should say to them: “If that does not give you a basic standard, you know, there are ways in which we top up the standard. You can get your housing benefit.”
But it went too far. If children have a problem, it is society that is at fault. There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate. And the worst things we have in life, in my view, are where children who are a great privilege and a trust—they are the fundamental great trust, but they do not ask to come into the world, we bring them into the world, they are a miracle, there is nothing like the miracle of life—we have these little innocents and the worst crime in life is when those children, who would naturally have the right to look to their parents for help, for comfort, not only just for the food and shelter but for the time, for the understanding, turn round and not only is that help not forthcoming, but they get either neglect or worse than that, cruelty.
I'll get the tin hat out but if a labour politician had said this would it have been interpreted the same way given the whole context in which it was said.
Red_is_best
Well-known member
That’s a good point and, on reflection, I probably should not have included it. Hadn’t realised either that this came from 1987, so well after she brought about the shift to me, me, me. Doesn’t make me feel any different about any of the rest.
VestasBoro
Well-known member
I feel like my back is up alot more than it's ever been, not sure why.
changingman
Well-known member
I agree with this, the rot started with the neoliberalist march of Thatcher and Reagan, but I think the current "predicament" is actually a result of the realisation that it's "all just a lie".
A number of crises are bearing down on the world currently, growing inequality, the climate crisis, Covid, Russian aggression etc...and I think there is a real understanding amongst those sectors of society which have traditionally held power that the power base could be shifting.
The overtly aggressive right-wing posturing (and policy making) of the US and UK in recent years is viewed, in my mind, as an attempt to maintain the status quo for as long as possible in the face of either direct attack, or existential threat. It's just that the response has manifested itself in different ways across the globe.
Neoliberalism on paper looks brilliant, and all things being equal (impossible I know!) it might have lasted longer than it has. It's main issue is that the cards were stacked from the off - those at the top of the tree looked towards it as a way to enhance their power and wealth, hoping everyone wouldn't notice (or offering enough "crumbs" to placate them).
It's also offensive to me that more people don't see/understand Fabio's post above - it's not particularly well hidden and if we ignore it for much longer we will do irrevocable damage to ourselves, each other and the environment. I guess the media/big tech/governments all want their slice too before it runs out completely!
Andy_W
Well-known member
I think Brexit really shook the hornets nest, the brexit voters worrying about things which didn't exist (or matter), or which they somehow thought could be better out of the EU.
Then as Yoda says "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering", it's then just a feedback loop of things getting worse, and then more hate/ anger/ suffering.
So you've got all these brexit voters ***ed off, largely as they're always ***ed off, but also because some now realise they were lied to, and you've got the remain voters like myself, ***ed off at the brexit lot for being duped and dragging us all down with them, despite all the warnings being given.
Then as Yoda says "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering", it's then just a feedback loop of things getting worse, and then more hate/ anger/ suffering.
So you've got all these brexit voters ***ed off, largely as they're always ***ed off, but also because some now realise they were lied to, and you've got the remain voters like myself, ***ed off at the brexit lot for being duped and dragging us all down with them, despite all the warnings being given.