Academy players - too cautious?

[Chutney]

Without knowing the inner workings of it I would have thought we'd have a better chance of getting players through without losing them to a bigger club like all the north west clubs do to City/Utd or the London clubs do to Chelsea etc. It seems unlikely that we will have stopped producing footballers in the North East so why are they not making the grade with us? I remember seeing a stat that the North East produces the most England players. We still seem to be well represented in England youth squads but we're not getting many that make it to the U21s anymore and even fewer making it to the 1st team. We had loads of U21s in the early 00s. In the last 10 years is it only Fry, Hackney, Gibson and Steele?

Being in the NE doesn't stop the likes of City or Man U snapping them up. Kid who lived over the road from me (Whitley Bay) went to the Man U academy when he was about 9 or 10. He's still there, will be 19 or 20 now - couple of first team appearances and a loan to Bolton last year, but doesn't seem to be getting close to any regular appearances and there's former academy teammates of his getting regular game time, so even then he may end up at a lower level long term.

 

[Nano]

Being in the NE doesn't stop the likes of City or Man U snapping them up. Kid who lived over the road from me (Whitley Bay) went to the Man U academy when he was about 9 or 10. He's still there, will be 19 or 20 now - couple of first team appearances after a loan to Bolton last year, but doesn't seem to be getting close to any regular appearances and there's former academy teammates of his getting regular game time, so even then he may end up at a lower level long term.

True but I would guess most parents wouldn't move across the country for their 9 year old. I thought there were restrictions on signing kids that young?

I can't pretend my knowledge is that deep. I know a few kids playing in academies and people coaching their kids teams which has academy kids in it so I hear snippets but I don't know all the ins and outs.

 

[B_G]

Being in the NE doesn't stop the likes of City or Man U snapping them up. Kid who lived over the road from me (Whitley Bay) went to the Man U academy when he was about 9 or 10. He's still there, will be 19 or 20 now - couple of first team appearances and a loan to Bolton last year, but doesn't seem to be getting close to any regular appearances and there's former academy teammates of his getting regular game time, so even then he may end up at a lower level long term.

Not possible unless they fudged the address (which of course is possible).
He may have went there at U12 on a scholarship? Which would mean moving away from home. Otherwise they would have to move closer.

I know a kid at Leeds whos only 7. Man United keeping tabs but can't sign him until he's 12. Bigger academies are always going to be a draw for the top teenagers. There's literally nothing clubs like Boro can do about that.

 

[Chutney]

True but I would guess most parents wouldn't move across the country for their 9 year old. I thought there were restrictions on signing kids that young?

I can't pretend my knowledge is that deep. I know a few kids playing in academies and people coaching their kids teams which has academy kids in it so I hear snippets but I don't know all the ins and outs.

Not possible unless they fudged the address (which of course is possible).
He may have went there at U12 on a scholarship? Which would mean moving away from home. Otherwise they would have to move closer.

I know a kid at Leeds whos only 7. Man United keeping tabs but can't sign him until he's 12. Bigger academies are always going to be a draw for the top teenagers. There's literally nothing clubs like Boro can do about that.

You know, I may well have guessed the age wrong, but the rest is right - Newcastle wanted him apparently, but the academic setup was much better at Man U. He was a bright kid and his parents were just making sure that his education didn't take a backseat. He moved to Manchester with his dad while his mum stuck around with the other two kids (one of whom is also in Man U's academy now) while they sorted getting the house sold. Both were in health care (she was a GP) so making that move may not have been such a gamble for them as it might have been for other people.

 

[B_G]

You know, I may well have guessed the age wrong, but the rest is right - Newcastle wanted him apparently, but the academic setup was much better at Man U. He was a bright kid and his parents were just making sure that his education didn't take a backseat. He moved to Manchester with his dad while his mum stuck around with the other two kids (one of whom is also in Man U's academy now) while they sorted getting the house sold. Both were in health care (she was a GP) so making that move may not have been such a gamble for them as it might have been for other people.

If they moved to a new address then it's possible he did go at 9 year old because he would be within the one hour commute.

Clubs like United generally won't scout in the North East because it's pointless. They can't bring kids in unless they relocate which is obviously rare, especially for kids so young. What can happen though is they poach the top academy kids at tournaments or at academy open days etc which is what I would guess is happened there. I would guess he was already involved with one of the North East academies when they came across him.

U9s is the first academy year and the youngest that a kid can start playing and a contract commencing. Boro already have 6 kids signed at U7 ready for their U9 contract to commence. They play in a pre-academy. They don't play any official matches but they train together and play in development tournaments etc. But they won't play proper academy matches until U9.

They have little talent pool sessions set up from U6 where they keep tabs on the best kids in the area up until U9 where they will finalise the U9 squad (of around 16 players). The talent ID session is then fold.

 

[B_G]

Up until U9 it's not rare for the best kids to be playing in 2 or 3 pre-academies or talent ID sessions and hedging their bets to see if they get a contract offer as well. I know a few kids playing at 2 of the 4 North East pre-academies or talent sessions. I know of one kid playing at 3.

 

[TeaCider]

One of "Klopp's kids" from the League Cup final was poached from Newcastle's academy, another from Sunderland's.

 

[Redwurzel]

The Boro's academy is a better place than most other academies for most boys, but I imagine 11 year old years and their families want the glamour badge. Our Calum is so good because he's at the MU Academy.

 

[B_G]

The Boro's academy is a better place than most other academies for most boys, but I imagine 11 year old years and their families want the glamour badge. Our Calum is so good because he's at the MU Academy.

I've been around a lot of academy players and parents over the years and I genuinely don't think that's how parents think. Parents of kids who play at that sort of level are generally well informed and make decisions based on what they think is best for their son.

The kids that get scouted for United etc are generally the stand out kids who are really excelling. If an opportunity comes up to go to an academy like United then it needs to be seriously considered.

What sacrifices will you as parents, the player and the rest of the family need to make to make this work? There's also the higher risk factor with it being more competitive so being dropped from the academy.

Versus

A much higher percentage of becoming a professional footballer. Even the lower end of the United academy graduates tend to make it as some sort of professional footballer whereas at Boro the vast majority end up at Northern League.

I think it's unfair to say that parents want the glamour badge. I'm sure 99% of them want what's best for their kid. And sure a lot of them may boast or talk about the success of their child within the academy but so what. I'm sure a lot of us are proud of our child's achievements and like to tell people about them.

 

[NortonExile]

I watched a game a few weeks back when we played Sunderland, they absolutely took us to the cleaners. We scored a couple but it looked like men against boys. Cup competition maybe but our lads looked miles away from first team squad material.

Totally agree. Sunderland had a player in Watson, who for me, could be playing first-team for them. Our U23/18’s have been very poor for a few years now.

 

[Redwurzel]

I've been around a lot of academy players and parents over the years and I genuinely don't think that's how parents think. Parents of kids who play at that sort of level are generally well informed and make decisions based on what they think is best for their son.

The kids that get scouted for United etc are generally the stand out kids who are really excelling. If an opportunity comes up to go to an academy like United then it needs to be seriously considered.

What sacrifices will you as parents, the player and the rest of the family need to make to make this work? There's also the higher risk factor with it being more competitive so being dropped from the academy.

Versus

A much higher percentage of becoming a professional footballer. Even the lower end of the United academy graduates tend to make it as some sort of professional footballer whereas at Boro the vast majority end up at Northern League.

I think it's unfair to say that parents want the glamour badge. I'm sure 99% of them want what's best for their kid. And sure a lot of them may boast or talk about the success of their child within the academy but so what. I'm sure a lot of us are proud of our child's achievements and like to tell people about them.

I was thinking of 11 years olds when I imagine it hard to decide what the full potential of your child is i.e what is the best for their son. Many parents want to aim as high as possible and at 11 it could be a top 6 Premier League Club. A guy I worked with had his son a local academy for a Division 2 Club. When a Championship Club got interested he moved him to their academy and the son was driven 120 miles a day to their academy. The son failed to make the grade at the Championship Club and last I heard he was playing non league in South Yorkshire - 150 miles from where he originally lived. I think the family wanted the best for their son, but it must have made his teenage years difficult.

 

[Redwurzel]

Totally agree. Sunderland had a player in Watson, who for me, could be playing first-team for them. Our U23/18’s have been very poor for a few years now.

Quite a few of our younger players are in our first team squad and even on our first team bench (6 against Coventry). We also loan a decent number out - haven't we got three keepers out on loan?

It could also be more difficult to attract N/E youngsters than in the past, because of the pull of the glamour clubs and easier transport?

 

[Paulroddam7]

But the best ones are signed at 6 and 7 though aren't they.

All the very best under 7s get signed early. They just don't start their academy contract until U9.

Most other clubs will have a much bigger catchment than Boro. A club like Leeds can take kids from Leeds right across to Hull. Down past Sheffield, across to Manchester including Bradford and Hudderfield etc and right up to Middlesbrough. Their catchment population must be 3 or 4 times that of Boros.

Boro, Sunderland and Newcastle are basically fighting for the same kids from Boro, Sunderland and Newcastle

They aren’t really signed though, the pre contract isn’t worth the paper they’re written on. A kid could sign for Man City at 6 then just b***r off to Man U when it comes to signing day if he wanted to.

 

[Since1973]

The kids that get scouted for United etc are generally the stand out kids who are really excelling. If an opportunity comes up to go to an academy like United then it needs to be seriously considered.

What you have said appears to be the main issue -
If the best / stand out players get taken by the big clubs ( Man U, City, Chelsea etc) it must be far harder to bring players through. They might take the one player you had pinned your hopes on

People seem to be saying our young players should be given a chance - what if they are not good enough?

I’m not aware of us losing highly regarded academy players but we may have done.

I know Sunderland have lost a few - the problem is if you have a highly rated young player it is difficult to keep hold of them

 

[outoftown]

I think the whole ' not old enough or physically developed enough for the champ ' is a bit old school .
" Put them on loan with older terrible footballers , on shyte pitches to toughen them up " feels a bit old fashioned.
The kids coming through at Liverpool, Newcastle, man city or anywhere else are hardly physically imposing specimens .
.
I'm not saying our kids are good enough, but with what's required in TV football, are we missing something ??

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

I think the whole ' not old enough or physically developed enough for the champ ' is a bit old school .
" Put them on loan with older terrible footballers , on shyte pitches to toughen them up " feels a bit old fashioned.
The kids coming through at Liverpool, Newcastle, man city or anywhere else are hardly physically imposing specimens .
.
I'm not saying our kids are good enough, but with what's required in TV football, are we missing something ??

Watch them against kids their own age then make a judgement. You're not going to be able to do that reading club hype which is repeated on here.

 

[Frozen Horse]

I think there is a culture now in which a youth player is seen as a huge risk unless he's been out on loan for at least one season, possibly two.

It's not just Boro that suffer from this, and it wasn't always so.

The case that sprung to mind for me was one Mark Hudson. He had a modest career around the lower leagues, but made his professional debut for us, coming on as a sub against Liverpool. It wasn't just for the last 5 minutes either; he played over 20 minutes plus injury time. Nor was it a nothing to lose situation: we were in a relegation battle and were 1-0 up, which is how it stayed. Nor was it due to injury: he replaced Karembeau who was having one of his best games (as he seemed to against the better teams) and who scored the winner.

I don't think there's any way such a move would be made today. The man that made the change was Terry Venables, a man noted for his skill in bringing through young talent. The reaction all around me was that Robbo would never have made such a change.

Maybe it didn't help this particular player that much: he didn't have that great a career. However, the positivity that TV showed that day, that it paid off, and that he had a reputation for bringing through youngsters stayed with me, and maybe something we could learn from now.

 

[Craggsy2]

My theory is that we are trying to be a Poundshop version of the Man City academy while in the Championship. Not sure who thought it was a good idea. City can sell their seniors who don't make the step into their 1st team squad to lower level Premier and top end Championship clubs for multiple millions each season which probably means they're making a healthy process out of their academy.

We can give away ours who don't make the grade to league 2 or lower. The only way we make money out of our academy is by getting players into the 1st team squad and the occasional sell-on clause. To be fair, we have made good money from Tav and Spence but Spence was bought in rather than developed in house. In the last seven years, we have only had one academy player who was developed through the academy get sold for more than £1m. That seems poor.

That said, I suspect that 1 player making the grade each season is probably about as much as you can realistically hope for.

This season, Coburn accidentally made the grade and was doing ok until his injury. We currently have Hemming and Brynn out on successful loans but unless we sell Dieng, there's no route for them here. Probably means they get sold for a 6 figure fee each to league one or Scottish Premiership plus sell-on clauses. Bilongo has done ok at Ebbsfleet, and you could imagine a league 2 club buying him for a nominal fee and a sell-on clause.

Last season, Coburn and Brynn both had good loans.

Season before, Hackney had an important loan even if it didn't go well and stepped up on the back of it.

Before that, Jones had a decent loan and got into the 1st team squad.

I'd like to see one of Brynn or Hemming promoted to our number 2 next year (probably Brynn, he has played 32 times for Orient already this year and they are close to the League 1 play off spots) and move on Glover who is rank average.

 

[Caesium137]

They come in because of injuries or suspensions and just 'fit' and look the real deal. Yet they probably wouldn't have got a kick had it not been for said injuries.

The point being they just need a chance. They manager or even the player may not actually think they are 'ready'. Yet just take to it like a 'duck to water' . Especially with senior pros all around them.

But surely that's the point with how poor ours seem to be, we've quite often had six to eight players missing for huge chunks of this campaign, including all of our squad options in certain positions necessitating playing people out of position fairly often.

None of our youth options have really been tried anywhere. Gilbert has barely had a half of league football all season, Hoppe hasn't been used at all since returning, Bilongo and Agyemang who looked closet to being physically up to the challenge of senior football pre-season haven't had a sniff and are both out on loan, and we have loaned in a LB & RB where both could have been tried.

We are at the point where we could lose about 5 U23 squad and three or four of the first team fringe players and it would make next to no difference to the match day selection group of 15-18 players regularly used.

If none of them have got near to starts this season I just don't see how they ever will , especially after we strengthen in the summer, and you would have to hope / pray / assume we'll have less injuries and international absences next time around.

 

[Ash88]

We need to follow Sheff Utd's example in terms of youth and building for the future...

They signed Sam Curtis from St Patrick's in the Irish league - 17 year old full back - he was on the bench last week in the PL.
They also signed Ryan One from Hamilton in Scotland - 17 year old winger - subbed on for a few minutes in the PL earlier in the season.

Two examples of academy signings, with professional experience, U21 internationals, with the potential of playing for the first team in the future.

They're not hard to find either... Dylan Smith is a 17 year old CB playing for Ross County - a few sub appearances (and an assist) in the SPL - We could probably sign him for no more than 300k.
He could replace Paddy McNair on the bench for the first team - while still playing for the academy.

Cameron Bruce is a 18 year old LB playing for Queens Park - 15 apps in the Scottish 2nd tier and we'd probably get him for 150k.
George Nevett is another CB - 18 - Wales U19 - playing consistently for Rochdale in the National League. Bristol signed a similar young player in the same league for less than 200k.