Academy players - too cautious?

K

Kilburn

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Anyone think that Boro are too cautious nowadays about playing our young academy players?
We seem to have fewer coming through into the first team than we used to, but when they do the success-rate is arguably higher than for players the club has bought in.
I cant think of many who were given a run of games and ended up not being up to it - Coulson, ??? More players who have been given the chance have ended up being first-team fixtures - eg Hackney, Fry. Are we missing out by being too risk-averse with them?
It's certainly a long way from the club that put out a team of 10 academy players (+ Malcom Christie) under McClaren in the Premier League against Fulham at the end of the 2005/6 season before the UEFA cup final.
 
Our academy graduates have been more successful than our signings recently.

Hackney is better than Barlaser and O'brien
Coburn better than Lath, Hoppe, Greenwood and anyone else we've tried to throw up front.

I would like to see us try one or two for a run of games towards the end of the season. We aren't going to threaten at either end of the table so it's the ideal opportunity really.
 
We would often churn out players capable of playing in the Prem, but now our current crop can't make the grade in the Championship.

Personally I think the talent probably is there, but we're too cautious.
 
The season is over, I'd try to give a few game time to see how they fare. What do we have to lose? If we were pushing for automatic promotion I'd be reluctant to play any kids, but mid table obscurity gives us an opportunity to keep giving a few game time.

Not suggesting putting 3-4-5 in the starting lineup, but give them half an hour see what they can do.
 
h_m_boro said:
The season is over, I'd try to give a few game time to see how they fare. What do we have to lose? If we were pushing for automatic promotion I'd be reluctant to play any kids, but mid table obscurity gives us an opportunity to keep giving a few game time.

Not suggesting putting 3-4-5 in the starting lineup, but give them half an hour see what they can do.
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I think it would be good to pick your best 3 and give them all at least 6 games each with no more than 2 on the pitch at a time. There must be a CM who we can try given its an area we know we are short next year. If there's any promising full backs give them a shot
 
h_m_boro said:
The season is over, I'd try to give a few game time to see how they fare. What do we have to lose? If we were pushing for automatic promotion I'd be reluctant to play any kids, but mid table obscurity gives us an opportunity to keep giving a few game time.

Not suggesting putting 3-4-5 in the starting lineup, but give them half an hour see what they can do.
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That is exactly what I was going to say.

Though some academy players who I think were potentially going to be on the fringe of the first team this season have been injured through most of the season.
 
MickaelDebevePhenomenal said:
You could argue that we've had more success as we've put the players in at the right time???

It's a tough one as fans love to see academy players come through and make the grade, but there hasn't been a plethora of academy players that haven't been given a chance here and gone elsewhere and smashed it, which shows we tend to get it right.
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True, there aren't any glaring examples of players we've let go who have made it big, although we could arguably have saved ourselves a few quid on goalkeepers.
I thought it could have been that there is more competition for the best young players than when our academy was first set up, but almost all of that 2006 squad were born within 30 miles so it's not like we cast our net far and wide back then! I suppose it could still be the case, if bigger clubs are now recruiting young players on 'our patch' who would previously have ended up at Boro.
 
I often think this. I see a reasonable amount of the u21s/u18s and there is a lot of talent there. But the gap between u21 and the first team is huge. Where we have struggled recently is getting players out on loan and I know Craig Liddle mentioned this earlier in the season. Look at Hackney, that full season with Scunthorpe in L2 will have done him the world of good. This season bar the keepers (Brynn, Hemming) we've only had a handful of playes at non-league and not with much success.

Even with Hackney, the circumstances fell perfectly for him. Leo had nothing to lose when putting him in. If our form had improved under Wilder who knows where Hackney would be now because he almost certainly wouldn't have been involved in our first team. I think the issue is the stakes are so high, and the pressure is on to win every match, that managers are really reluctant to put young players in unless they are clearly at the level required.

Where Carrick has missed a trick though for me is giving some of the players on the bench some time. Saturday for example, it was going nowhere. Why not bring McCabe on and see what he can do?
 
Kilburn said:
True, there aren't any glaring examples of players we've let go who have made it big, although we could arguably have saved ourselves a few quid on goalkeepers.
I thought it could have been that there is more competition for the best young players than when our academy was first set up, but almost all of that 2006 squad were born within 30 miles so it's not like we cast our net far and wide back then! I suppose it could still be the case, if bigger clubs are now recruiting young players on 'our patch' who would previously have ended up at Boro.
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There's limits to how far an academy can recruit from. A Category 1 academy like Boro can only recruit within a 1 hour commute up until the age of U12.

It then extends to a 90 minute commute unless a scholarship is offered in which case there is no limit.

The key for the Club really is making sure that the best local talent is recruited before the age 12 and already in their system. The best kids in Teesside can only play for Boro, Sunderland, Newcastle or Leeds up until then.
 
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Bigger clubs are far better at recruitment. They have them at their academies when they are 5. The best ones all end up in the same few places. Those players then go out on loan and fill the squad of teams down the pyramid. We do the same only we send them lower. They are footballer farms. Those bigger academies are producing enough players to play in the top 2 leagues. We're producing players to play in the levels below that. A successful academy doesn't just produce players for the 1st team. 1 or 2 a season and it is doing its job.

Another big difference to the past was that young players used to play against adults from a young age. The good ones would go into the reserves but now it is just academy players vs academy players with the odd player that needs some fitness. Even if they are talented enough to play in the adult game they aren't necessarily physically up to it so we need to send them out on loan to develop that physicality. Some people expect youth players to rip up the division if they go to L1 on loan but they are just there to learn to play against adults. It is only after they have been on loan we can consider them for the 1st team.
 
The problem with our academy is for every 2 players who have the potential to make it, they're playing alongside 9 players who are clearly not good enough, and it doesn't help their development.
In order for us to push players through to the first team, they need to be playing alongside better players every week...

When Hackney/Coburn came through - the players they played with might not have been championship level, but a lot of them are now playing professionally in leagues 1 and 2.
Sam Folarin has 3 goals and 3 assists this season for Harrogate. Jack Robinson is playing for Carlisle. William Kokolo is at Swindon.
They're good players, and good players help other good players get better.
Jones was also a regular in the U21s that season. Nathan Wood was playing with them the season before.

Last season... We had nobody even close to that level... Cal Kavanagh was potentially the closest and we've just sold him to league 2.
Most players we're releasing from the academy are ending up at Whitby Town and Spennymoor (Isaac Fletcher signed for Spennymoor yesterday).

I think the only way to solve the problem is to do more of what we've just started to do, and sign players from the lower leagues to play in our academy, such as Daniel Nkurmah from Leyton Orient.

The level of the entire academy needs to step up to league 2 instead of the national league north level we're probably at now.
That way... When a player stands out at league 2 level, there's a higher probability they'll be good enough for the championship...
Instead of standing out at a national league north level which potentially means nothing to us as a championship club.
 
If the general standard that the academy are playing at is too low, does that strengthen the argument for the players who currently stand out in that environment being integrated into first-team matchday squads sooner as a way to expose them to better players and football - particularly for the rest of this season given where we are now?
 
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MickaelDebevePhenomenal said:
You could argue that we've had more success as we've put the players in at the right time???

It's a tough one as fans love to see academy players come through and make the grade, but there hasn't been a plethora of academy players that haven't been given a chance here and gone elsewhere and smashed it, which shows we tend to get it right.
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Sums up my feelings pretty much too. If they were anywhere near they'd have been in this season when we have had 6 to 8 players unavailable fairly frequently.
 
Kilburn said:
If the general standard that the academy are playing at is too low, does that strengthen the argument for the players who currently stand out in that environment being integrated into first-team matchday squads sooner as a way to expose them to better players and football - particularly for the rest of this season given where we are now?
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They might be doing that behind closed doors. A manager, like Carrick, shouldn't need to see a player in a match to know if they are capable of playing championship football. I presume there are academy players that join the 1st team sessions and if they are ding that and looking lost then it's pointless throwing them into a championship game.

With Hackney the management team must have known he was good enough and it was only Wilder refusing to acknowledge it because as soon as he was gone he was given the chance. The only way they would know that is if he was regularly playing with the 1st team in training.
 
Ash88 said:
The problem with our academy is for every 2 players who have the potential to make it, they're playing alongside 9 players who are clearly not good enough, and it doesn't help their development.
In order for us to push players through to the first team, they need to be playing alongside better players every week...
Click to expand...
This seems to be the key problem but is one we're struggling to solve. My understanding is that the reason we brought the likes of Nkrumah and Agyemang was, in part, to improve the quality of the academy for the seniors. Doesn't seem to be working though.

I get the impression that the current crop of seniors is considered not good enough. There's no point in putting someone like Kavanagh in the team if you think his peak potential is league one. That said, it's hard to agree with the reasoning of putting a midfielder up front as a striker when you have actual strikers in the U21s. Once in a while, a young player surprises you.

So far Carrick hasn't integrated a single academy player into the team. Hackney was set up by Leo and Carrick only played Coburn after all else failed. Coburn had already had a largely positive league one loan. Carrick seems to rate Finch and Willis so it's unfortunate that they have both been injured all season.

Hard to know whether Carrick is over-cautious when it comes to u21s or whether the current crop of seniors really are that poor. For all he is nice and supportive to the press, Carrick appears to make quick judgements about players and gives up on them very quickly. Hoppe, Boyd Munce, Muniz, Luongo, Gilbert were all consigned to the void pretty much instantly.
 
Bruce said:
This seems to be the key problem but is one we're struggling to solve. My understanding is that the reason we brought the likes of Nkrumah and Agyemang was, in part, to improve the quality of the academy for the seniors. Doesn't seem to be working though.

I get the impression that the current crop of seniors is considered not good enough. There's no point in putting someone like Kavanagh in the team if you think his peak potential is league one. That said, it's hard to agree with the reasoning of putting a midfielder up front as a striker when you have actual strikers in the U21s. Once in a while, a young player surprises you.

So far Carrick hasn't integrated a single academy player into the team. Hackney was set up by Leo and Carrick only played Coburn after all else failed. Coburn had already had a largely positive league one loan. Carrick seems to rate Finch and Willis so it's unfortunate that they have both been injured all season.

Hard to know whether Carrick is over-cautious when it comes to u21s or whether the current crop of seniors really are that poor. For all he is nice and supportive to the press, Carrick appears to make quick judgements about players and gives up on them very quickly. Hoppe, Boyd Munce, Muniz, Luongo, Gilbert were all consigned to the void pretty much instantly.
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The current crop of seniors are definitely considered not good enough.

Jeremy Sivi will be 22 in July and can't get in the starting 11 for Harrogate. He's played 400~ mins and been "okay" in league 2.
Isaiah Jones was considered a late bloomer after being in the lower leagues and he started nearly every game in his debut season for us in the championship at 22.

Jack Hannah will be 22 this year, and has only played 2 semi-professional games at Darlington
Dael Fry in the same position had already played nearly 100 times for us at that age, and 10 times on loan to Rotherham.

George Gitau will be 21 this year, and he was playing on loan at Marske in December - the 7th tier of English football - 5 divisions below us.
Hayden Coulson broke into our first team under Woodgate and played 29 games for us at the same age.

Jack Stott, 20 years old, can't get his game at Gateshead in the National League.
Ben Beals, 20 years old, spent the first half of the season at Marske - did quite well but what's next? - Keep him in the U21 till his contract runs out and he signs for Spennymoor like we did Fletcher?
Frankie Whelan, Fenton John - Both 20, both played nearly 100 times at youth level - If they still can't get a decent loan, they'll never be good enough.

It's a brutal strategy but we probably need a complete cull of youth players over the summer
 
Bruce said:
Hard to know whether Carrick is over-cautious when it comes to u21s or whether the current crop of seniors really are that poor. For all he is nice and supportive to the press, Carrick appears to make quick judgements about players and gives up on them very quickly. Hoppe, Boyd Munce, Muniz, Luongo, Gilbert were all consigned to the void pretty much instantly.
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I wonder if Carrick has a bit of a blind spot that comes of him having spent pretty much his whole career in elite football (ok, yeah, Man Utd, but still...). There are plenty of players who aren't that technically gifted who have made good careers in the Championship and even bottom half of PL, but is he able to see past a lack of finesse? Pretty much all the players he has brought in look like 'nice footballers', their shortcomings have tended to be other aspects - workrate, physicality, awareness etc.
So is the flipside that homegrown players that have those qualities but maybe not the best touch get overlooked?
Basically, would a Cattermole or a Pollock get their chance nowadays?
 
Its a tricky one as other posters have said there is a big jump between age banded and senior football. Take Coulson played for England at pretty much every age but hasn't found the jump to senior football that easy. Harry Chapman whilst didn't play for england as much as Coulson and struggled to too. As far as I know we have 2 players of Coulson's international youth pedigree in our ranks Finn Cartwright and Sonny Finch but that pedigree is no guarantee of making it at our level.
 
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