Academy players - too cautious?
- Thread starter Kilburn
- Start date
festa5
Well-known member
Doesn't take much for a player to fall through the leagues. Very fine margins between success and failure sometimes.
We've had a few come in, make a few appearances, look like they should be fine at this level or at least league 1, then end up in non-league after a few seasons.
The likes of Anthony Ormerod, Jonathan Franks, Luke Williams.
Some really talented players, but if something isn't quite there like attitude, physicality, fitness etc. It's incredibly hard to make the grade.
We've had a few come in, make a few appearances, look like they should be fine at this level or at least league 1, then end up in non-league after a few seasons.
The likes of Anthony Ormerod, Jonathan Franks, Luke Williams.
Some really talented players, but if something isn't quite there like attitude, physicality, fitness etc. It's incredibly hard to make the grade.
UTB70
Well-known member
Rather put a energetic promising youngster in than a 32 year old whose legs are going and makes regular errors. Managers seem to overlook older players making mistakes yet treat a youngster very harshly if they make tge lesser errors, exvuse is usually all in the name of protection or trust but i wouldnt trust many older players to do their jobs right either.
He went on a pre-season trial at Carlisle in the summer and picked up an injury - they didn't want him in the end.
I think they actually came out and said they didn't think he'd be able to push to make the first team which I thought was unprofessional - Must have been a confidence knock for him.
He's played for Stockton and West Auckland since - and now Whitby - alongside Bradley Fewster, another ex-Boro academy.
and was in the Guardian's next generation best talents in 2016
Next Generation 2016: 20 of the best talents at Premier League clubs
The Guardian has identified some of the best young talents at the Premier League clubs born between 1 September 1999 and 31 August 2000, an age band also known as first-year scholars. We then follow their progress over the coming years
www.theguardian.com
though tbf I don't notice too many of those having done particularly well
and was in the Guardian's next generation best talents in 2016
Next Generation 2016: 20 of the best talents at Premier League clubs
The Guardian has identified some of the best young talents at the Premier League clubs born between 1 September 1999 and 31 August 2000, an age band also known as first-year scholars. We then follow their progress over the coming years
though tbf I don't notice too many of those having done particularly well
I think describing 17 year olds as "An old-fashioned centre-forward blessed with an Alan Shearer-esque penchant for goalscoring" is part of the problem.
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret
Well-known member
Best defender, best midfielder and best centre forward.
Bruce
Well-known member
My theory is that we are trying to be a Poundshop version of the Man City academy while in the Championship. Not sure who thought it was a good idea. City can sell their seniors who don't make the step into their 1st team squad to lower level Premier and top end Championship clubs for multiple millions each season which probably means they're making a healthy process out of their academy.
We can give away ours who don't make the grade to league 2 or lower. The only way we make money out of our academy is by getting players into the 1st team squad and the occasional sell-on clause. To be fair, we have made good money from Tav and Spence but Spence was bought in rather than developed in house. In the last seven years, we have only had one academy player who was developed through the academy get sold for more than £1m. That seems poor.
That said, I suspect that 1 player making the grade each season is probably about as much as you can realistically hope for.
This season, Coburn accidentally made the grade and was doing ok until his injury. We currently have Hemming and Brynn out on successful loans but unless we sell Dieng, there's no route for them here. Probably means they get sold for a 6 figure fee each to league one or Scottish Premiership plus sell-on clauses. Bilongo has done ok at Ebbsfleet, and you could imagine a league 2 club buying him for a nominal fee and a sell-on clause.
Last season, Coburn and Brynn both had good loans.
Season before, Hackney had an important loan even if it didn't go well and stepped up on the back of it.
Before that, Jones had a decent loan and got into the 1st team squad.
Jedi boro
Well-known member
I’ve studied his stats since we signed him and it’s incredible how little first team time he’s had given his age.
I hope he comes good but there obv a question mark there.
We used to be successful at doing that because alongside the 1 player that makes it - there was always another 5+ others in the squad who had the potential to make it too.
When Dael Fry played his first season at U21 - He was partnering Adam Jackson at CB who now has over 100 appearances in L1 (and 30 in the Championship).
Brad Halliday also played 30 games for the U21s that season, and now has over 70 appearances in L1 and over 200 in L2.
Nathan McGinley was also in the team. Before his career ending injury he was playing regularly for Motherwell in the SPL.
We also signed Arnel Jakupovic from an Austrian team for our U21s and then sold him for £1m that season.
Harry Chapman. Alex Pattison. Tom Brewitt (now a regular with Swindon in L2). Enes Mahmutovic (played in the UEFA cup with CSKA Sofia). Paddy Reading (100+ games in Scottish Champ).
Hayden Coulson played a few games. Luke Armstrong played a few games. Ledesma even played 15~ games in that U21 team and scored 9 goals that season.
----
Our current academy is nowhere near what it was 5-6 years ago.
viv_andersons_nana
Well-known member
Didn’t Kieron Scott say something about there being a great batch of 15-16 year-olds about to come through? He was also talking about the club wanting to sign players from elsewhere to bulk up the youth squads.
To be honest I think I’ve heard this stuff about the next batch being the best batch ever maybe 12 or 13 times in the 30-odd years I’ve been supporting Boro. And they’re always ‘a couple of years away’ as well.
Personally I would like to see one or two more given more of a chance at senior level tbh. You look at our performance last week and there is absolutely no way they could be worse than Barlaser, Ayling, Silvera and Thomas were against Plymouth. Look at other clubs - it’s Liverpool now, and obviously injuries dictate and their youngsters are more than likely ahead of ours or just flat out better, but it’s all relative isn’t it. You always need an injury or two to open up a space. Why not promote one or two now and see if anyone can step up? Sometimes they can surprise you. Look at Liverpool.
And I think if we promote the better ones now and give them minutes, it possibly makes it easier to convince someone from League One or League Two to take them on loan and actually put them in their teams. If we show faith then it makes it easier for other managers and coaches to show faith too. Maybe.
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TeessideCleveland
Well-known member
TeessideCleveland
Well-known member
He's in the 25 until the end of the season, but can't see him playing unless we get an even bigger injury shortage , or possibly once we are mathematically out of the play offs
It would be interesting to see the stats on the other top tier academies. We are one of only 24 level 1 academies. 15 of them are PL teams and the rest are top end championship teams (plus Derby and Reading). It does feel like we are under-performing in generating top level/championship players or players that are saleable even to just the level below.
It is disappointing to read that so many of our players don't even make it into league football because I imagine we invest a decent amount in running the academy.
It is disappointing to read that so many of our players don't even make it into league football because I imagine we invest a decent amount in running the academy.
Does this come back to catchment area?
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret
Well-known member
Bit out of date but I think they've stopped doing them.
trainingground.guru
We really didn't make the most of the best the academy produced. Kind of an irony that Morrison and brunt did so well for west Brom after coming through our academy, whilst half our recent signings seem to have originated at West Brom.
The utter madness of the Southgate years. Selling cattermole at the same time as losing rocky and boateng. Selling Morrison for two million and replacing him with O'Neil.
My waryness over our current path stems from these years. Selling our homegrown talent and replacing them with useless punts.
At least we have staff in place now to try and find a way into the first team.
Training Ground Guru | 2021/22 Academy Productivity Rankings: Chelsea top for first time
CHELSEA have topped Training Ground Guru’s Academy Productivity Rankings for the first time. The Blues Academy was the most productive in the country, with Manchester United second and Arsenal third.
trainingground.guru
We really didn't make the most of the best the academy produced. Kind of an irony that Morrison and brunt did so well for west Brom after coming through our academy, whilst half our recent signings seem to have originated at West Brom.
The utter madness of the Southgate years. Selling cattermole at the same time as losing rocky and boateng. Selling Morrison for two million and replacing him with O'Neil.
My waryness over our current path stems from these years. Selling our homegrown talent and replacing them with useless punts.
At least we have staff in place now to try and find a way into the first team.
Without knowing the inner workings of it I would have thought we'd have a better chance of getting players through without losing them to a bigger club like all the north west clubs do to City/Utd or the London clubs do to Chelsea etc. It seems unlikely that we will have stopped producing footballers in the North East so why are they not making the grade with us? I remember seeing a stat that the North East produces the most England players. We still seem to be well represented in England youth squads but we're not getting many that make it to the U21s anymore and even fewer making it to the 1st team. We had loads of U21s in the early 00s. In the last 10 years is it only Fry, Hackney, Gibson and Steele?
It's more about the quantity though isn't it. The more kids available the better chance of finding a star.
I would guess the amount of kids available to a Manchester/Liverpool could be 3 times more than Boro. London clubs maybe 5 times more?
The best kids will have the choice of Boro/Sunderland/Newcastle/Leeds as well so it's convincing them to come to boro as well. When we were premier league maybe was easier to get those kids