A short video on Sweden and Covid

I travelled to Sweden at the end of September for a week and I'll be back end of November for a week as long as their new rules allow it. It was a 7 date tour across the country so I feel like I got a good sense of the national attitude on Covid from the Swedes I met. They are pretty much all in agreement that they need to stay the course, had a plan and even though the herd immunity was a failure they need to stick to the plan now. There was little or no deviation from that, young or old.

It was a bit strange, no masks and hardly any visible sign of social distancing (I was playing shows to 50 people at a time in venues that hold 100's more but apart from that).
 
FabioPorkpie said:
I do find it peculiar that it tends to be right leaning media that is pushing the Sweden ‘Success’ story while also completely ignoring the major, major differences in their healthcare and more ‘lefty liberal’ welfare system and general attitude.
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I know, it's crazy isn't it, it's like they want to have their cake and eat it, they just don't get it.

We have we seen this all before, with brexit, it seems the same people to me too.

There's tons of nut jobs on my various feeds and it's always the same people pedalling any combination of the below:
The virus isn't real
Masks don't work
Lets do the Sweden model
No lock downs
It's Bill Gates
Turkey is joining the EU
The Earth is flat
Vaccinations don't work
Illegal immigrants get 100k a year
Indian doctors, Polish plumbers ..... stole my job
Climate change isn't real
Greta Thunberg should shut up, or just taking the mick out of her
We don't like/ trust experts

Of people who I know, see on my feeds and see out in my daily life, mostly people seem to fall into two categories, there's people that either post or like stuff like the above (not necessarily all or most of it), or those that wouldn't post or like any of it it and just don't think that way at all.
 
Statto1 said:
I know, it's crazy isn't it, it's like they want to have their cake and eat it, they just don't get it.

We have we seen this all before, with brexit, it seems the same people to me too.

There's tons of nut jobs on my various feeds and it's always the same people pedalling any combination of the below:
The virus isn't real
Masks don't work
Lets do the Sweden model
No lock downs
It's Bill Gates
Turkey is joining the EU
The Earth is flat
Vaccinations don't work
Illegal immigrants get 100k a year
Indian doctors, Polish plumbers ..... stole my job
Climate change isn't real
Greta Thunberg should shut up, or just taking the mick out of her
We don't like/ trust experts

Of people who I know, see on my feeds and see out in my daily life, mostly people seem to fall into two categories, there's people that either post or like stuff like the above (not necessarily all or most of it), or those that wouldn't post or like any of it it and just don't think that way at all.
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You don't half talk nonsense, rather than take apart an argument with discussion and evidence you prefer to try to distract and poison the messenger by pushing perfectly reasonable debating points in with the 'crazies, the racists and the tin foil haters'.
 
Statto1 said:
I know, it's crazy isn't it, it's like they want to have their cake and eat it, they just don't get it.

We have we seen this all before, with brexit, it seems the same people to me too.

There's tons of nut jobs on my various feeds and it's always the same people pedalling any combination of the below:
The virus isn't real
Masks don't work
Lets do the Sweden model
No lock downs
It's Bill Gates
Turkey is joining the EU
The Earth is flat
Vaccinations don't work
Illegal immigrants get 100k a year
Indian doctors, Polish plumbers ..... stole my job
Climate change isn't real
Greta Thunberg should shut up, or just taking the mick out of her
We don't like/ trust experts

Of people who I know, see on my feeds and see out in my daily life, mostly people seem to fall into two categories, there's people that either post or like stuff like the above (not necessarily all or most of it), or those that wouldn't post or like any of it it and just don't think that way at all.
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Spot on
 
Alvez_48 said:
You don't half talk nonsense, rather than take apart an argument with discussion and evidence you prefer to try to distract and poison the messenger by pushing perfectly reasonable debating points in with the 'crazies, the racists and the tin foil haters'.
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My evidence is what I see every single hour of every single day I'm awake, and they're practically identical opinions and viewings to that of pretty much everyone who I'm friends with (and there's a few different friend groups). The vast, vast majority of my friends are remain voters, labour voters, earn well above average earnings and well educated, be that through uni or other training. Maybe we're all wrong and imagining all these posts, and haven't had tons of conversations about it, but that's not true, as we're not imagining it, and we do have conversations about it.

People either believe or post that crap or they don't, and I never said they post it all. But I don't know one single person in my friends groups who would post anything like any of that, or likely even thinks anything like that.

But on here, these are my opinions and those of many others, and I'm capable of taking on board opinions of others, unlike yourself.

From what I've read, you're on one of the highest horses of them all and I really CBA with you either.
 
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Statto1 said:
My evidence is what I see every single hour of every single day I'm awake, and they're practically identical opinions and viewings to that of pretty much everyone who I'm friends with (and there's a few different friend groups). The vast, vast majority of my friends are remain voters, labour voters, earn well above average earnings and well educated, be that through uni or other training. Maybe we're all wrong and imagining all these posts, and haven't had tons of conversations about it, but that's not true, as we're not imagining it, and we do have conversations about it.

People either believe or post that crap or they don't, and I never said they post it all. But I don't know one single person in my friends groups who would post anything like any of that, or likely even thinks anything like that.

But on here, these are my opinions and those of many others, and I'm capable of taking on board opinions of others, unlike yourself.

From what I've read, you're on one of the highest horses of them all and I really CBA with you either.
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So you say that yet I voted remain, welcome immigrants, understand the world is spherical, don't give two hoots about 5g etc.. so again you're chatting ****.

You're evidence is non existent as you've yet again proved in the dribble that falls from your fingers onto this forum.
 
Alvez_48 said:
So you say that yet I voted remain, welcome immigrants, understand the world is spherical, don't give two hoots about 5g etc.. so again you're chatting ****.

You're evidence is non existent as you've yet again proved in the dribble that falls from your fingers onto this forum.
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Nope, I'm not, I just put you in the "believe some of that crap" category. Fair enough, you don't believe all or most of the other crap, that's a good thing, well done (y)

Your evidence is none existent, and you've no idea what I see day to day.

There is no way on this spherical earth that the Swedish system would work here, because of the point I was replying to originally (which wasn't aimed at you). There's too many far right selfish nut jobs here, we're not Sweden. I don't even think their model worked there either, effectively due to deaths per capita compared to the world, and their neighbours who they're most alike, I suppose, but that's a different debate to my point.

I would love for us to have the same type of government and people as Sweden, but it's not happening, certainly not anytime soon, so it's not likely that policies designed for there would work here.
I would swap our death rate for Sweden's if coupled with the same amount of lock down, but it's not going to work because of the above.
But even then there are better options, proven options which have worked better than Sweden, for nations more like us (or not like Sweden), that aren't in the top 10 deaths per capita list.
 
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Statto1 said:
Nope, I'm not, I just put you in the "believe some of that crap" category. Fair enough, you don't believe all or most of the other crap, that's a good thing, well done (y)

Your evidence is none existent, and you've no idea what I see day to day.

There is no way on this spherical earth that the Swedish system would work here, because of the point I was replying to originally (which wasn't aimed at you). There's too many far right selfish nut jobs here, we're not Sweden. I don't even think their model worked there either, effectively due to deaths per capita compared to the world, and their neighbours who they're most alike, I suppose.

I would love for us to have the same type of government and people as Sweden, but it's not happening, certainly not anytime soon, so it's not likely that policies designed for there would work here.
I would swap our death rate for Sweden's if coupled with the same amount of lock down, but it's not going to work because of the above.
But even then there are better options, proven options which have worked better than Sweden, for nations more like us (or not like Sweden), that aren't in the top 10 deaths per capita list.
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What evidence of mine that I claim to exist doesn't exist?

And for someone who likes to accuse people who question the direction / narrative about the virus of being against immigrants etc you then go ahead and blame people's behaviour as 'we're too selfish blah blah'.

Don't worry about answering my question we shall respectfully agree to disagree.
 
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Statto1 said:
I know, it's crazy isn't it, it's like they want to have their cake and eat it, they just don't get it.

We have we seen this all before, with brexit, it seems the same people to me too.

There's tons of nut jobs on my various feeds and it's always the same people pedalling any combination of the below:
The virus isn't real
Masks don't work
Lets do the Sweden model
No lock downs
It's Bill Gates
Turkey is joining the EU
The Earth is flat
Vaccinations don't work
Illegal immigrants get 100k a year
Indian doctors, Polish plumbers ..... stole my job
Climate change isn't real
Greta Thunberg should shut up, or just taking the mick out of her
We don't like/ trust experts

Of people who I know, see on my feeds and see out in my daily life, mostly people seem to fall into two categories, there's people that either post or like stuff like the above (not necessarily all or most of it), or those that wouldn't post or like any of it it and just don't think that way at all.
Click to expand...

Bit of a straw man argument there like
 
Alvez_48 said:
What evidence of mine that I claim to exist doesn't exist?

And for someone who likes to accuse people who question the direction / narrative about the virus of being against immigrants etc you then go ahead and blame people's behaviour as 'we're too selfish blah blah'.

Don't worry about answering my question we shall respectfully agree to disagree.
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You seem to be defending the Swedish model, which to most logical people is indefensible at this moment in time. You also seem to be saying that their model would work here, most others are saying it would make our bad situation worse. Do you honestly believe our people do or would act as the Swede's do?

Just to clear this up though, I've never for one second, said that all people who question the direction were against immigration, and never said you were either etc, I was more getting along the lines of from what I've seen it's the far right lot that seem to be all for the conspiracy theories. You can't say this is not the case, as factually from what I've seen, it is the case, I've no reason to lie, and I absolutely detest liars.

I said that pretty much all the people that I'm friends with are Labour voters and Remainers, and I've never seen any of them post any conspiracy stuff or mention it, not once, ever. This lot didn't vote the Tories in, but they seem to be the ones best playing by the Tories rules, it's strange I know. I would count the Swedish stuff as along the lines of conspiracy, as to those claiming it to have "worked", as if it had "worked" they wouldn't have had so many dead people. Worked compared to where?
 
‘which to most logical people is indefensible at this moment in time‘

Starts to get a bit daft when you use statements like that.....
You may think it’s illogical
Others may think it is logical.

Whether ‘most people’ do or not is as irrelevant as it is difficult to prove.
 
Ok @Statto1 let's inspect your claim about Sweden having so many deaths... Now the year isn't over and they did have a lot of deaths due to covid in the first half of the year.

However, over the course of a year on current trend they are actually likely to have the same if not slightly lower overall death rate than other years.

This may change of course but it does counter your claim:-

IMG_20201020_163818.jpg
 
Alvez_48 said:
Ok @Statto1 let's inspect your claim about Sweden having so many deaths... Now the year isn't over and they did have a lot of deaths due to covid in the first half of the year.

However, over the course of a year on current trend they are actually likely to have the same if not slightly lower overall death rate than other years.

This may change of course but it does counter your claim:-

View attachment 7720
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Where did you get that data table Alvez? The Beeb put up an excess deaths table comparing England and Scotland at lunchtime; it also had a few other countries with Sweden at about 3% higher excess deaths compared with the last 5 years.
 
Alvez_48 said:
Ok @Statto1 let's inspect your claim about Sweden having so many deaths... Now the year isn't over and they did have a lot of deaths due to covid in the first half of the year.

However, over the course of a year on current trend they are actually likely to have the same if not slightly lower overall death rate than other years.

This may change of course but it does counter your claim:-
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I was on about the 6k covid deaths compared to their 10m population, and their excess deaths, but will gladly look into your table, I welcome the additional info.

As for your table:
People are living longer, so you would expect a reduction year on year, so you would hope this would carry on this year to the same degree, as in more like -0.570% or even more like -1.0% to get nearer that recent -0.6% average.
As there was a small reduction for 19, you could say that 20 should have been expected to have a bigger reduction
You've had 6/12 months of warmer weather and 3/12 months of colder weather, there's still 3/12 months of colder weather to come (this isn't going to help you)
Social movements in Sweden were down 30-35% around the peak, and have fluctuated from around -15% and -35% since then, seeing as social movements are down, you would expect accident deaths, work deaths, RTA's and deaths from other transmissible diseases would be down also (but they don't seem to be).

There's also a note note on that page:
1603215933177.png
 
Statto1 said:
I was on about the 6k covid deaths compared to their 10m population, and their excess deaths, but will gladly look into your table, I welcome the additional info.

As for your table:
People are living longer, so you would expect a reduction year on year, so you would hope this would carry on this year to the same degree, as in more like -0.570% or even more like -1.0% to get nearer that recent -0.6% average.
As there was a small reduction for 19, you could say that 20 should have been expected to have a bigger reduction
You've had 6/12 months of warmer weather and 3/12 months of colder weather, there's still 3/12 months of colder weather to come (this isn't going to help you)
Social movements in Sweden were down 30-35% around the peak, and have fluctuated from around -15% and -35% since then, seeing as social movements are down, you would expect accident deaths, work deaths, RTA's and deaths from other transmissible diseases would be down also (but they don't seem to be).

There's also a note note on that page:
View attachment 7724
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Alot of what you right there is highly questionable as death rates have been increasing over the past 10 years in many places including the UK (I cannot say specifically in Sweden), I'd also take your road traffic accidents comments lightly without data behind it. It looks like rona has almost completely displaced the flu which is interesting because you could use those figures to say all manner of opinion.

I take your point regarding the UN projections though it was just a swift Google on my part to find some projected figures. Maybe someone with more time than me can delve into the numbers and give a more accurate answer. That said when I look at life in Sweden compared to ours I know who I'm envious right now


Debating I have no problem with you see. 👍🏻
 
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Alvez_48 said:
Alot of what you right there is highly questionable as death rates have been increasing over the past 10 years in many places including the UK (I cannot say specifically in Sweden), I'd also take your road traffic accidents comments lightly without data behind it. It looks like rona has almost completely displaced the flu which is interesting because you could use those figures to say all manner of opinion.

I take your point regarding the UN projections though it was just a swift Google on my part to find some projected figures. Maybe someone with more time than me can delve into the numbers and give a more accurate answer. That said when I look at life in Sweden compared to ours I know who I'm envious right now


Debating I have no problem with you see. 👍🏻
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Andrew Neil is fond of quoting stats on Sweden

https://twitter.com/x/status/1318800485005037569
 
My issue with the Sweden argument isn’t so much that they have gone about things ‘wrong’, it’s that it’s held up as an example of a successful policy purely because it was contradictory to the way the rest of the world did things. Held up against its nearest, (and most similar) neighbours of Norway, Denmark, Finland, it’s figures are terrible.

Having said that, there is quite a lot that simply doesn’t add up regarding the information we are given and it would be foolish not to have some pretty big and uncomfortable questions.
Unfortunately, trying to find answers quickly takes you down the path towards some pretty major and fantastical conspiracy theory stuff. Nevertheless, there is still plenty that doesn’t add up. My view of things is probably far more aligned with @T_A_D @RandySavage, @Alvez_48, @1finny than I realise.
 
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