A short video on Sweden and Covid

atypical_boro said:
I wish random selections of our population on the street sounded as articulate as that.....in their second language.
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That's exactly it, they're just so different to us, look at how sensible and caring they are. They're taking sort of sensible actions of their own accord without being told to, or even asked to really. There is just no way on earth that would or could happen here, the UK is just too selfish and has a terrible attitude.
Imagine those interviews in Boro or tying their method here? It didn't really work there, so there's zero chance of it working here.

Over here it would be like opening the bars to a load of pi$$ heads and saying, I'll be back in two weeks, hold the fort. You would come back and the place would be a mess, all the booze would be gone and half of the punters would be dead.

1finny said:
A key take away - the elderly happy to to self isolate to allow the rest of society to crack on
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Imagine telling our old or at risk people they had to look after themselves in isolation, whilst the rest of us got on with it, even thinking about it the first responses that came into my head were:
"Fcuck you"
"We didn't fight in wars for you lot to lock us up"
"I ain't listening to no experts, it only kills 1 in 158,000"
"It's not even real"
"I was only going round Esmerelda's for a few hours"
"Bingo won't be a problem, it's all of us oldies. Oh, that's just Johnny, the glass collector, he's been at Uni all week the poor lad."
"My daughter dropped me off"
"I came on the bus, via the bus station"
"But I have to go to Tesco, I still need food. I don't trust that on line delivery rubbish"
"Trump says don't wear a mask, that's good enough for me"

All of those above are along the lines of statements I've heard and read, but yes I know not everyone is like that, but a lot are.
 
Statto1 said:
That's exactly it, they're just so different to us, look at how sensible and caring they are. They're taking sort of sensible actions of their own accord without being told to, or even asked to really. There is just no way on earth that would or could happen here, the UK is just too selfish and has a terrible attitude.
Imagine those interviews in Boro or tying their method here? It didn't really work there, so there's zero chance of it working here.

Over here it would be like opening the bars to a load of pi$$ heads and saying, I'll be back in two weeks, hold the fort. You would come back and the place would be a mess, all the booze would be gone and half of the punters would be dead.



Imagine telling our old or at risk people they had to look after themselves in isolation, whilst the rest of us got on with it, even thinking about it the first responses that came into my head were:
"Fcuck you"
"We didn't fight in wars for you lot to lock us up"
"I ain't listening to no experts, it only kills 1 in 158,000"
"It's not even real"
"I was only going round Esmerelda's for a few hours"
"Bingo won't be a problem, it's all of us oldies. Oh, that's just Johnny, the glass collector, he's been at Uni all week the poor lad."
"My daughter dropped me off"
"I came on the bus, via the bus station"
"But I have to go to Tesco, I still need food. I don't trust that on line delivery rubbish"
"Trump says don't wear a mask, that's good enough for me"

All of those above are along the lines of statements I've heard and read, but yes I know not everyone is like that, but a lot are.
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But isn't the point that they're simply given the choice? And the younger folk aren't asked to feel guilty in Sweden, about their behaviour, if one of the older folk decides to take risks with their own existence?

And the outcome is that the older folk choose to mostly play a straight bat.
 
Personally think it is a real stretch to trying to make the distinction that they are mor ‘caring/sensible’ than us.
I’m sure they have there share of bellends and we have more than our share of compassionate caring people. Many on this board have talked about the sacrifices they have been prepared to make.

A clear conversation going along the lines of ....
’look, we think the young are relatively low risk. We know the elderly are high risk. To keep society moving along we are going to ask you to socially distance but, lets be clear, if you visit an elderly relative in doors you may kill them’
Would resonate with most

I’ve no idea whether it is the right thing to do just responding to the particular points.
 
When you see a video like that @1finny it is so logical and reasonable it shows when you cover the issue normally people are able to remain rational and critical.

In so many countries like here we went for fear mongering (as pushed by SAGE in their leaked documents) and it has resulted in large chunks of the population being unable to actually think clearly about the risk Vs benefit of anything.
 
atypical_boro said:
But isn't the point that they're simply given the choice? And the younger folk aren't asked to feel guilty in Sweden, about their behaviour, if one of the older folk decides to take risks with their own existence?

And the outcome is that the older folk choose to mostly play a straight bat.
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We can't give ours the choice as they've had countless choices in other areas and failed miserably by comparison. The risk with this is too great, it's not something you can get a second go at, without massive consequences.
If we wanted the choice this time, then the choice should have been earned before the choice was needed.

If there's a spare chocolate bar left, but there was two in the pack, you don't give it to the fat kid with chocolate all over his face, you give it to the skinny kid.

If we left it to free choice here you would have half the country in super strict self imposed lock down, trying their best to obey every rule and stop the virus spreading, but the other half would be going wild and not giving a toss. Overall the impact may be the same, but one there is suffering by trying to do good, and the other is not suffering by being selfish, it's just not a fair way to do it.

The choice is part of the way their country operates from what I've read, and their choice is a reward for how they have acted previously, which is fair enough on that aspect. They have proven that you can't isolate the older folk though, as it will get in, just like it got in here and there to the care homes etc.
 
1finny said:
Personally think it is a real stretch to trying to make the distinction that they are mor ‘caring/sensible’ than us.
I’m sure they have there share of bellends and we have more than our share of compassionate caring people. Many on this board have talked about the sacrifices they have been prepared to make.
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I'm not saying they don't have bellend's and we don't have caring people, I'm just saying our bellend:caring ratio seems to be a lot worse than theirs.

I've been over there a few times and the neighbouring countries and the atmosphere just always seems nicer/ better, it's the same any time you see random interviews from those places compared to here, it's incomparable.

1finny said:
A clear conversation going along the lines of ....
’look, we think the young are relatively low risk. We know the elderly are high risk. To keep society moving along we are going to ask you to socially distance but, lets be clear, if you visit an elderly relative in doors you may kill them’
Would resonate with most
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There's nothing I would love more than for that to be the case, I've just zero faith that would happen. There's just too many that would spoil it and bring the entire thing crashing down.
 
Statto1 said:
I'm not saying they don't have bellend's and we don't have caring people, I'm just saying our bellend:caring ratio seems to be a lot worse than theirs.

I've been over there a few times and the neighbouring countries and the atmosphere just always seems nicer/ better, it's the same any time you see random interviews from those places compared to here, it's incomparable.



There's nothing I would love more than for that to be the case, I've just zero faith that would happen. There's just too many that would spoil it and bring the entire thing crashing down.
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Fair enough - all good debate.
I guess the question it begs is (clearly unanswerable by us)
‘how much worse (deaths) would it have been had we taken a different route‘ or Indeed
’what would we have been prepared to put up with with a different approach’?
 
Alvez_48 said:
large chunks of the population being unable to actually think clearly about the risk Vs benefit of anything.
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I don't mean to miss quote you, but that last bit in isolation would actually sum it up quite well on it's own.

The problem is a lot of our people are too daft, reckless, selfish or thick to even do any sort of risk analysis for themselves, never mind others, so I personally wouldn't give them the option. The same way I wouldn't let some random dude chose the settings on the X-Ray machine. The UK's done enough self harm over the last 4 years, we don't need any more.

I'm not saying fear mongering works either, but facts normally should. The thing is, half the population has been steered to believe/ say "we don't believe in experts" for the last 4 years, there's always a consequence.
 
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1finny said:
Fair enough - all good debate.
I guess the question it begs is (clearly unanswerable by us)
‘how much worse (deaths) would it have been had we taken a different route‘ or Indeed
’what would we have been prepared to put up with with a different approach’?
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Yes, would have been interesting.

I would have also like to have seen what had happened if remain had won, or if brexit had happened a few years ago and with it the economic problems. There might have been more people inclined to listen to the experts? Maybe could have also been a different story with Labour in charge, but I think the brexit thing was more divisive.

There's just too much conspiracy crap going around now, and people putting equal value on the opinions of those that are qualified v those that are not, it's starting to cause massive problems.
 
The other side of the argument. A long read with a sensationalist headline but irrespective of that, there are lots of very interesting points and information in this article -

https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/

It’s such a different country in terms of education, public attitudes, healthcare, welfare etc that I just don’t think it would work here. In fact, it’s still highly debatable whether it even worked there. I see some regions in Sweden are now looking at lockdowns as a serious option -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...s-local-lockdowns-shift-coronavirus-strategy/

I still think that Sweden should be compared to its Scandinavian neighbours who are far similar countries and attitudes in most aspects, than we are.


Edit - I’m not saying Sweden got it wrong because who knows what is the best policy with this?
I just think Sweden being held up as an example of how to do things is far too simplistic.
 
What I would say is that a lot of elderly have already isolated for long periods this year. I know one lady who has had severe depression problems that she is only just getting over. I hate to think what another extended period of self isolation would do for her.

There is also a school of thought that the younger people just "cracking on" as the OP states is one of the reasons why we are having this second wave. When I go out you will see the older people keeping their distance but the younger people(not all but most) just don't give a flying fvck.

Maybe the answer is to make the younger generation isolate until the work out how the rules work and just let the rest of us crack on.:)
 
Having spent several years of my life in Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Denmark) I can honestly say it's unjust trying to compare like with like.

We're a backward looking nation when it comes to being civilised and treating each other with respect compared to any of the three. We're a predominantly conservative nation, moving backwards is our way, as other nations progress.

The politics that got the Scandinavian people to where they are today is still ridiculed here as 'liberal' and 'progressive'. Why either idea should be the a symbol of national scorn is beyond me. We should be looking to copy the way their societies are organised if we want to share the benefits.
 
I'm not a psychologist but I suspect the difference is how they behave as a "society" rather than what Swedes are like as individuals. On an individual level probably very little difference between us but as a group they seem to behave significantly differently.

Loads of studies done on that sort of thing, all quite interesting. How you change it, I'm not sure. But I'm willing to bet a key part will be down to leadership. (So nuff said).
 
FabioPorkpie said:
The other side of the argument. A long read with a sensationalist headline but irrespective of that, there are lots of very interesting points and information in this article -

https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/

It’s such a different country in terms of education, public attitudes, healthcare, welfare etc that I just don’t think it would work here. In fact, it’s still highly debatable whether it even worked there. I see some regions in Sweden are now looking at lockdowns as a serious option -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...s-local-lockdowns-shift-coronavirus-strategy/

I still think that Sweden should be compared to its Scandinavian neighbours who are far similar countries and attitudes in most aspects, than we are.


Edit - I’m not saying Sweden got it wrong because who knows what is the best policy with this?
I just think Sweden being held up as an example of how to do things is far too simplistic.
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Fabio - agree with your summary
Also agree, as per Statto, that even if we thought this was right for us would we respond responsibly.

Begs another question tho (does't it always)
Response and behaviour so far has been 'questionable' at best. We could have the same questionable behaviour and just crack on?
 
People who support ever harsher restrictions can't have it both ways...

If our populace is so poor at following guidelines then the restrictions have no impact on the virus which then shows the virus is not worth the restrictions.

Or

Our populace isn't that bad actually and therefore we are totally capable of being like Sweden and following their types of restrictions.

😉
 
Corcaigh_the_Cat said:
The politics that got the Scandinavian people to where they are today is still ridiculed here as 'liberal' and 'progressive'. Why either idea should be the a symbol of national scorn is beyond me. We should be looking to copy the way their societies are organised if we want to share the benefits.
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I do find it peculiar that it tends to be right leaning media that is pushing the Sweden ‘Success’ story while also completely ignoring the major, major differences in their healthcare and more ‘lefty liberal’ welfare system and general attitude.
 
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