A little bit toxic on here today!

I quite enjoyed yesterday.

Probably not a great match unless you were emotionally invested in it, but a full-blooded encounter that swung between the two sides.

I am a little disappointed in the result of course: I expect to beat Sunderland every time we play them, and a draw feels a bit like a win for them.

However, I've said repeatedly in the last week we're some way off being a promotion side, so maybe I wasn't expecting as much as some. After yesterday I see both sides finishing 8th-9th

Am I disappointed with that? I suppose so. However, I think we're in a considerably better position, in terms of squad and finance, than we were the moment last season's loan signings went back.
 
A good thought provoker that OP, and perspective is always good.

However, after 29 matches last season, we were 3rd in the table, having taken 28 points from the previous 12 matches since Carrick's first match.
We had momentum and had just recruited 2 excellent loan players in Archer and Ramsey who would see us score even more goals and comfortably secure home advantage in the play offs.

This season we've taken 17 points from the last 12 matches, have no momentum and have recruited very disappointingly in January.
I look at our final 17 league fixtures and can't see a lot of points, leaving us the epitome of mid table mediocrity.

Our next 6 home matches of the 8 left, on paper look very winnable, but so too did Rotherham, Sunderland, Stoke, QPR and Hull. That before we close at home with Leeds and Watford.
The 9 away are a tough close, with PNE, Leicester, Southampton, Hull and Ipswich very tricky.

We have been unlucky with so many injuries and do have players missing who can make a positive difference. Dieng, Jones, McGree, Coburn. I think Bangura too could make a contribution, though he seems out for ages?
I don't personally see Smith, Lenihan, or Latte Lath offering anything significant at all even if they could return, which they can't.

Of course we still could go on a remarkable run and sneak into the top 6, but sadly I can't remotely see it.
To make the top 6 would be remarkable from here. To win through, a miracle.

And so what then of this building a squad and creating a promotable core?
O'Brien, Greenwood, Ayling, Thomas all go back to parent club.
McNair, Howson and J Jones are all out of contract and will not return.
McGree and I Jones will both be in final year and likely sold.
Crooks is also in final year and likely to leave it seems, sadly.
IF and it is IF that happens then that would be 10 players leaving.

The 19 players we would retain would be:
2 GK Dieng (3 years), Glover (3 years)
4 FB Smith (Final year) Dijksteel (Final year) Engel (3 years), Bangura (3 years).
4 CB Clarke (Final year + 1 year option), Lenihan (2 years), Fry (2 years), Van den Berg (3 years)
2 CM Barlaser (2 years), Hackney (3 years),
4 AM Silvera (2 years) Forss (2 years) Gilbert (3 years), Azaz (4 years)
3 CF Hoppe (2 years) Coburn (3 years), Latte Lath (3 years + 1year option)

That is a mile away from a strong core.
Of course McGree and Jones could sign new contracts, but although worth having, I'm not sure they are obvious top 6 players.
If they do sign then it is highly likely Hackney or VdB would be sold given recent experience of selling and that would take us significantly backwards.
 
I had an interesting sense of perspective last night. And I'm not just using this as an excuse to boast that I've been in Madrid this weekend.

I was at the Madrid derby last night. Real conceded a last minute equaliser, which had been coming for at least twenty minutes, and their fans are kicking seats and shouting at the players. No doubt their message boards today are full of posts about Nacho and Valverde being 'Segunda Division at best' etc and how Ancelotti is clueless. (In fairness I thought withdrawing Rodrygo for Modric was a strange decision when Atleti were there for the taking and Real could have easily put them to bed with more positivity).

But it was interesting to see how even fans of the mighty Real Madrid react almost exactly the same as ours when they get a mediocre result (even if they stay top), its just football isn't it.

That said, no one should have been content with us being mid-table this season and there are no real excuses if that's where we end up, but there are 17 games left and Carrick still has a lot of credit in the bank, mainly for playing an attractive style more than anything else.

I hope we can be there or thereabouts or there will be a swing in attitudes towards him, which is where it gets tricky for Gibson. 8 seasons outside the top flight is unheard of for 50 years.
 
sambasauce said:
It's always the same after a defeat. I thought the standard protocol was to stay away until Wednesday as most people completely lose the plot!
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I usually have a go at keeping away, but 2 minutes after their goal I was tapping away to send my ' loving' message to fmttm. I would have taken a draw after the first half, but credit to us we totally took it to them 2nd half that's why I felt disappointed with what and how it happened. Anyways that's about toxic as I want to be. UTVFB
 
Frozen Horse said:
However, I think we're in a considerably better position, in terms of squad and finance, than we were the moment last season's loan signings went back.
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Are we though? We've still got 4 loans that will be playing regularly through the remainder of the season. I expect Thomas to come into the team for Engel.
Expect to lose Crooks, McNair, Howson and Hackney in the summer.

There's going to be some big holes to fill in the squad again this summer. I don't think bringing 8-10 low cost punts is going to cut it next season.
 
B_G said:
Are we though? We've still got 4 loans that will be playing regularly through the remainder of the season. I expect Thomas to come into the team for Engel.
Expect to lose Crooks, McNair, Howson and Hackney in the summer.

There's going to be some big holes to fill in the squad again this summer. I don't think bringing 8-10 low cost punts is going to cut it next season.
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I don't think any of the loans make our best 11 at present. I don't see the fullback we've signed this window as any more that depth pieces.

Steffan, GIles Archer and Ramsey all definitely did last season.

Emphatically, yes, we are in a better position.
 
Frozen Horse said:
I don't think any of the loans make our best 11 at present. I don't see the fullback we've signed this window as any more that depth pieces.

Steffan, GIles Archer and Ramsey all definitely did last season.

Emphatically, yes, we are in a better position.
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Our squad a year ago was definitely much stronger than now.
I really don't think our squad at June 30th will be stronger than it was June 30th 2023.
 
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indeedido said:
Our squad a year ago was definitely much stronger than now.
I really don't think our squad at June 30th will be stronger than it was June 30th 2023.
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Agreed about this time last year.

However the second the final whistle was blown vs Coventry, we didn't have that squad anymore. Ramsey, Archer, Giles were no longer anything to do with us. That is the point from which we have improved.

I do think we'll be stronger just after the final whistle this season than we were after it last.
 
B_G said:
Are we though? We've still got 4 loans that will be playing regularly through the remainder of the season. I expect Thomas to come into the team for Engel.
Expect to lose Crooks, McNair, Howson and Hackney in the summer.

There's going to be some big holes to fill in the squad again this summer. I don't think bringing 8-10 low cost punts is going to cut it next season.
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And this is the lie being fed about building a team over seasons it simply doesn't happen. I am sick of people on here saying things will be different next season with 3 or 4 signings added to this seasons squad and its promotion . The point is we are not adding 3 or 4 to this seasons squad because maybe upto 8 existing players will leave in the summer. The squad isn't getting stronger just the personel changing. season on season we are selling our best players Tavernier, akpom, rogers whos next vdb, Hackney, jones. Unless we get investment or gamble one season we are only going to tread water at best or at worst go backwards.
 
Frozen Horse said:
Agreed, but the second the final whistle was blown vs Coventry, we didn't have that squad anymore. Ramsey, Archer, Giles were no longer anything to do with us. That is the point from which we have improved.
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Does it really matter? I just don't get why people are so against loaning quality players if they improve the team and give us a chance of promotion. Even if they do go back to parent clubs at the end of the season. Realistically we can attract better players for loans than we can sign.

I would take loaning quality players like Archer, Giles and Ramsey over signing players like Engel, Silvera, Lath and Gilbert. All the teams towards the top of the division have good Premier league youth players on loan.

People keep going on about the Brighton model but they had plenty of loan players when they were promoted.
 
Glover_elbow said:
Unless we get investment or gamble one season we are only going to tread water at best or at worst go backwards.
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Yes, this is the situation imho too. Anything worse than 4th this season is arguably going backwards, and we have zero chance of getting top 4.

But it is what it is, as a wise man once said. We just don't have the ownership who'll take a 'promotion at all costs' approach.
 
atypical_boro said:
Yes, this is the situation imho too. Anything worse than 4th this season is arguably going backwards, and we have zero chance of getting top 4.

But it is what it is, as a wise man once said. We just don't have the ownership who'll take a 'promotion at all costs' approach.
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Frustrating knowing gibson gambled so much with monk and now we have the best manager in decades and were not. It always seems to the wrong uns get the dosh but we scrimp when have good ones like mogga or carrick
 
Glover_elbow said:
Frustrating knowing gibson gambled so much with monk and now we have the best manager in decades and were not. It always seems to the wrong uns get the dosh but we scrimp when have good ones like mogga or carrick
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well Karanka did get the dosh tbf, and he did get us up with it.

But unless we perform a miracle this season now, we are looking at our longest stint outside of the top flight in half a century. I just don't see how we get out of the rut without throwing money (that we don't really have) at it. Every club is trying to make 'better decisions', but its much harder than it looks.
 
B_G said:
Does it really matter? I just don't get why people are so against loaning quality players if they improve the team and give us a chance of promotion. Even if they do go back to parent clubs at the end of the season. Realistically we can attract better players for loans than we can sign.

I would take loaning quality players like Archer, Giles and Ramsey over signing players like Engel, Silvera, Lath and Gilbert. All the teams towards the top of the division have good Premier league youth players on loan.

People keep going on about the Brighton model but they had plenty of loan players when they were promoted.
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If you can't afford to buy the quality, then hire it, in order to get where you can get to in order to start to buy it.

This is what Brighton did in the Championship. Acquire the best squad they could to go up. Lost a lot of money doing it, then spent a fortune to stay up covered by the owner Bloom, in order to start their strategy of investing in quality to grow once established in PL albeit with massive debt to owner.
 
B_G said:
Does it really matter? I just don't get why people are so against loaning quality players if they improve the team and give us a chance of promotion. Even if they do go back to parent clubs at the end of the season. Realistically we can attract better players for loans than we can sign.

I would take loaning quality players like Archer, Giles and Ramsey over signing players like Engel, Silvera, Lath and Gilbert. All the teams towards the top of the division have good Premier league youth players on loan.

People keep going on about the Brighton model but they had plenty of loan players when they were promoted.
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I've no problem loaning quality at the right time. If we had been sitting 4th, maybe 4-5 points behind 2nd place, and we could loan a player who could realistically make the difference between automatic promotion and the playoffs, I'd say do it.

In this window, I felt we had maybe a 5% chance of promotion, 10% at the very best, IF we brought in some quality but expensive loans. I wouldn't throw our resources away gambling on those odds. Resources are scarce, and I would not choose to sacrifice next season chasing a minimal chance this year.
 
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