35,000 excess cancer deaths

There aren't solutions to protect the vulnerable whilst the virus is spreading through the community. South Korea, Vietnam, New Zealand, China, Germany and Taiwan have all approached this differently and far more effectively with far less impact on their economies. Test, test, test, suppress, suppress, suppress was the only way to do this from the beginning and, even now, is still the only way. If there was a vaccine guaranteed in 6 months, it would still be the only way. We're so far back and falling further back by the quarter, we have squandered every opportunity.
The test is useless, if you don't know this then do some research, the test is being used to generate cases which in turn is being used to instigate these lockdown variants.

Have a look here - https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...s/news-story/f2188f2aebff1b7b291b297731c3da74

Instead, Dr Nabarro (from the World Health Organisation) is advocating for a new approach to containing the virus.

“And so, we really do appeal to all world leaders: stop using lockdown as your primary control method. Develop better systems for doing it. Work together and learn from each other.”

“Lockdowns just have one consequence that you must never ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer,”
 
Back to the opening post, how does this compare to Germany, New Zealand, Japan, etc?
 
The test is useless, if you don't know this then do some research, the test is being used to generate cases which in turn is being used to instigate these lockdown variants.

Have a look here - https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...s/news-story/f2188f2aebff1b7b291b297731c3da74

Instead, Dr Nabarro (from the World Health Organisation) is advocating for a new approach to containing the virus.

“And so, we really do appeal to all world leaders: stop using lockdown as your primary control method. Develop better systems for doing it. Work together and learn from each other.”

“Lockdowns just have one consequence that you must never ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer,”
Testing is the alternative to lockdown in the countries that do well. Seems to work exceptionally well in Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, New Zealand.
 
we need a full 2 week lock down where only the bare minimum of people leave their homes. just enough people to ensure power to your homes, law and order is maintained and critical hospital care. Give people notice so they can ensure they have enough food medication etc to last the 2 weeks then everyone stays home for 2 weeks no shopping no pubs nothing.
 
we need a full 2 week lock down where only the bare minimum of people leave their homes. just enough people to ensure power to your homes, law and order is maintained and critical hospital care. Give people notice so they can ensure they have enough food medication etc to last the 2 weeks then everyone stays home for 2 weeks no shopping no pubs nothing.
In the first lockdown, one of the daily graphs showed adherence to social distancing rules at 80%. I can't see people being more cooperative now. (Sweden, with soft guidelines, had 85%. I see Sweden are pushing the need for continued social distancing in their soft guidance way so the aren't 'achieving' their goals without voluntary support of the public. A link here)
 
Again, judging by my walk and brief shop today, I would say that distancing is well and truly a thing of the past. Vast majority of people in each other's faces.
 
If covid is widespread in the community how do we protect the vulnerable and old? How do they shop, attend medical/dental appointments, have carers in their home/tradespeople in their home. What if they go into hospital and all of the people they will then be in contact with?
Also what about those who are vulnerable that have partners/children going out to work/school and mixing with other people? Older people who still have their children living with them, how do we shield them?

There is literally no way to just shield the vulnerable from all of this and let the rest of us carry on. Too many opportunities when they need to come into contact with other people who haven't been shielding. And if the virus is widespread they will inevitably catch it.

Also it takes years and years to train ICU staff, which isnt much good when we need these staff now for the covid hospitals. These staff members will have to come from other hospitals which then means non covid related treatments etc just wont get done.
It's impossible to shield everybody in the country.

Why do we not get a choice? Why are we put under what is basically house arrest for committing no crimes?

I've said before if those who want to shield want to carry on that is fine, give them the financial support from not been able to work, give them first dibs at home deliveries for food and essentials.

How long do we do we continue to jump in and out of lockdowns? Forever? Until a vaccine arrives? The flu vaccine a few years ago for example only had a efficiency of 50%for example, what happens if one is never found, what happens if its only effective for a few?

The too many opportunities to meet people excuse doesn't wash with me. My wife's grandparents who live in a housing estate in Acklam had absolutely NO contact with any other human for the first lockdown. Food deliveries were left in the garage and brought into the house after 2 days of food isolation, everything disinfected before hand. Medical supplies were left in the porch. The furthest they went from inside their home was the end of their back garden.


But no it's ok, cancer sufferers will be neglected again like they were at the start of all this.
 
It's impossible to shield everybody in the country.

Why do we not get a choice? Why are we put under what is basically house arrest for committing no crimes?

I've said before if those who want to shield want to carry on that is fine, give them the financial support from not been able to work, give them first dibs at home deliveries for food and essentials.

How long do we do we continue to jump in and out of lockdowns? Forever? Until a vaccine arrives? The flu vaccine a few years ago for example only had a efficiency of 50%for example, what happens if one is never found, what happens if its only effective for a few?

The too many opportunities to meet people excuse doesn't wash with me. My wife's grandparents who live in a housing estate in Acklam had absolutely NO contact with any other human for the first lockdown. Food deliveries were left in the garage and brought into the house after 2 days of food isolation, everything disinfected before hand. Medical supplies were left in the porch. The furthest they went from inside their home was the end of their back garden.


But no it's ok, cancer sufferers will be neglected again like they were at the start of all this.

Because if people had a choice they would do what is best for themselves which would inevitably end in thousands of deaths.

So what about when they need to go into hospital? What about if they need carers in the property? Just because one couple has managed to avoid any contact for 12 weeks, this doesnt mean everyone who is old or vulnerable can.

You also didnt answer how to protect the vulnerable/old that are in the same household as working adults or children attending school. Do the entire household need to avoid leaving the house too? How would that work on a national scale with millions of workers having to not leave the house?

If all of these decide to shield where does the money come from to pay them? What about the businesses that have lost their employees? Not as simple as giving them money to shield and letting them have first choice at Asda

Again cancer patients are being neglected because of a lack of staff to carry out treatments which will get worse when they have to divert more resources towards covid. The higher the infection rate = the worse it is going to be for cancer patients.
 
The UK average BMI is 27.5. The vast majority of people admitted to hospital (about 88 to 90%) have a BMI greater than 25. There's a lot of vulnerable people to protect in this country.
 
The UK average BMI is 27.5. The vast majority of people admitted to hospital (about 88 to 90%) have a BMI greater than 25. There's a lot of vulnerable people to protect in this country.
People with a BMI more than 25 are vunerable?

Ok then...

JM I already stated the solution to hospital visits. Any covid-19 paitents go to the nightingales.
Cuts the risk of picking up the virus in hospitals (which is where a lot of infections are coming from, world beating health service remember) drastically.

Where is the money coming from to pay furloughed workers? Where is the money coming from to pay all those new universal credit recipients? Where is the money going to come from to fund public services and the NHS when hundreds of thousands are out of work? When will cancer patients and others who've had treatments stopped without warning be given the same priorities as those with the virus in hospitals?

"Whatever Boris says goes" that is the general theme on this board, hell I bet if he came out with Whitty and Valance stood either side of him and told the population to wear a comic relief red nose to validate one of his latest madcap ideas loads of people would. 😂
 
People with a BMI more than 25 are vunerable?

Ok then...

JM I already stated the solution to hospital visits. Any covid-19 paitents go to the nightingales.
Cuts the risk of picking up the virus in hospitals (which is where a lot of infections are coming from, world beating health service remember) drastically.

Where is the money coming from to pay furloughed workers? Where is the money coming from to pay all those new universal credit recipients? Where is the money going to come from to fund public services and the NHS when hundreds of thousands are out of work? When will cancer patients and others who've had treatments stopped without warning be given the same priorities as those with the virus in hospitals?

"Whatever Boris says goes" that is the general theme on this board, hell I bet if he came out with Whitty and Valance stood either side of him and told the population to wear a comic relief red nose to validate one of his latest madcap ideas loads of people would. 😂
I doubt if many (any?) agree with Boris.

It's easier to grow a money tree than a health professional tree.
 
It's impossible to shield everybody in the country.

Why do we not get a choice? Why are we put under what is basically house arrest for committing no crimes?

I've said before if those who want to shield want to carry on that is fine, give them the financial support from not been able to work, give them first dibs at home deliveries for food and essentials.

How long do we do we continue to jump in and out of lockdowns? Forever? Until a vaccine arrives? The flu vaccine a few years ago for example only had a efficiency of 50%for example, what happens if one is never found, what happens if its only effective for a few?

The too many opportunities to meet people excuse doesn't wash with me. My wife's grandparents who live in a housing estate in Acklam had absolutely NO contact with any other human for the first lockdown. Food deliveries were left in the garage and brought into the house after 2 days of food isolation, everything disinfected before hand. Medical supplies were left in the porch. The furthest they went from inside their home was the end of their back garden.


But no it's ok, cancer sufferers will be neglected again like they were at the start of all this.

At the moment it seems that a vaccine is likely, and relatively quickly - the big question is when exactly will it be able to be rolled out. Until this is proven otherwise, the strategy seems to be trying to find a balance between protecting the economy and protecting lives. If it does turn out that a vaccine isn't viable then I'm sure this strategy will change.

We don't get a choice because in a situation like this, society at large can't be trusted to not be selfish - see the empty shelves at supermarkets earlier this year. It will just cause more problems. These are exceptional circumstances where I believe it is ok for some extra restrictions to be brought in. It is terrible. No-one wants it. It may not be the best way to deal with it when we look back. But it is what the strategy seems to be for now and we need to deal with it.

You keep saying the same old thing about cancer patients, but don't seem to acknowledge anyone elses point that if we don't have restrictions the hospitals will get overrun and either other treatments will have to stop (as there is no staff to cover everything, and it is unsafe), or the hospitals become a very unsafe place to be for people who are already ill. I know you say to "shield the vulnerable" but I think the first wave of this showed that it just isn't possible to do that effectively.

We could send them all to the nightingales, but where are you getting the staff from? You need trained staff.
Yes, all of these restrictions are going to end up costing money, and that's not a good thing either, but money is readily available via loans - we can deal with that later. You can't just magically staff multiple new hospitals overnight. We had to bring doctors out of retirement, and bring in student nurses the first time around - and we never even used the nightingales.

For the record, I think the government have done a terrible job. Too slow, too wishy-washy, very poor leadership. I think any of our last 10 PMs would have handled this better. I don't know what the exact answer is (no-one does, no matter what they tell you), but I know it isn't trying to go back to normal before it is feasible.
 
I've said before if those who want to shield want to carry on that is fine, give them the financial support from not been able to work, give them first dibs at home deliveries for food and essentials.

Again, for the umpteenth time, you’ve ignored my questions about your solution. And then doubled down and come out with the same thing!
Who is going to pay for these people to stay at home?! You??

Don’t you get it?? People want you to come up with a viable alternative to lockdown. We need a viable alternative!

Instead you keep spouting the same old shielding ‘solution’ that has had a million articles, social media posts, scientists tweets and even thickies like me explaining the problems with it and why it can’t work. Yet you keep repeating it, doubling down on it.

Have you not bothered to read any of the criticism of the shielding solution? You’ve certainly not tried to address any of the questions raised about it, at all. Just ignore them every time they are raised and instead, list the problems with lockdowns. Are you only looking at one side of the debate? Certainly seems that way.
 
At the moment it seems that a vaccine is likely, and relatively quickly - the big question is when exactly will it be able to be rolled out. Until this is proven otherwise, the strategy seems to be trying to find a balance between protecting the economy and protecting lives. If it does turn out that a vaccine isn't viable then I'm sure this strategy will change.

We don't get a choice because in a situation like this, society at large can't be trusted to not be selfish - see the empty shelves at supermarkets earlier this year. It will just cause more problems. These are exceptional circumstances where I believe it is ok for some extra restrictions to be brought in. It is terrible. No-one wants it. It may not be the best way to deal with it when we look back. But it is what the strategy seems to be for now and we need to deal with it.

You keep saying the same old thing about cancer patients, but don't seem to acknowledge anyone elses point that if we don't have restrictions the hospitals will get overrun and either other treatments will have to stop (as there is no staff to cover everything, and it is unsafe), or the hospitals become a very unsafe place to be for people who are already ill. I know you say to "shield the vulnerable" but I think the first wave of this showed that it just isn't possible to do that effectively.

We could send them all to the nightingales, but where are you getting the staff from? You need trained staff.
Yes, all of these restrictions are going to end up costing money, and that's not a good thing either, but money is readily available via loans - we can deal with that later. You can't just magically staff multiple new hospitals overnight. We had to bring doctors out of retirement, and bring in student nurses the first time around - and we never even used the nightingales.

For the record, I think the government have done a terrible job. Too slow, too wishy-washy, very poor leadership. I think any of our last 10 PMs would have handled this better. I don't know what the exact answer is (no-one does, no matter what they tell you), but I know it isn't trying to go back to normal before it is feasible.

I'm saying the money would be better spent elsewhere. Train more staff, hire more from abroad.
Remember Cuba and China sent a contingent of medical staff to Italy when it kicked off over there at the start of this pandemic, why haven't we asked them for the same help?
 
All this and about 40 actually healthy people have died. Christ. You’ve got to go sometime. If you’re self inflicted vulnerable then see you later pal. If you’re old and vulnerable then maybe you had a good innings, maybe you didn’t, but no one sticks around forever.
if you’re one of the unicorns that is cut down in their prime then that is a real shame, but life isn’t fair. It’s a roll of the dice.
Thank god you weren’t fated to a miserable existence or early death just for being unlucky enough to be born elsewhere in the world. And most of the country didn’t give two **** about that group of a billion or so people last time I checked.
Since when was 40000 even a large number when considering a population of millions.
we’re all ****ed because none of us are evolutionarily prepred to have daily deaths beamed to our pockets on the hour.
covid 19 is just a new way to die. Like being run over by a car must’ve been back in the day. Now responsible for over a million deaths a year, they say. Or plane crash victim. Obesity was a new way to die at some point, I guess. A new way to die. That’s all it is.
We all die. It’s literally the only thing guaranteed in this life.
Some of us would rather go on living while we can.
Hide all you want, you and everyone you know will die some day. On the grand scale you will die very soon. A blink of an eye in eternity.
There will be people who die immediately after this crisis is over. And won’t that be tragic. Lock down, suffer all this nonsense and then get hit by a train or have a heart attack. Imagine if you had every single one of those beamed to your phone.
In fact maybe I’ll make a service you can all sign up to. The day lockdown and corona crazy dissipates you will receive A push notification for every person that dies immediately afterwards. I’ll include some personal stories about how much they were looking forward to sharing a bucket of popcorn down the cinema again. Or something. And how tragic it is. You’ll be in line for about 150000 messages a day mind so clear up some time in your schedules. By the end of the first week after the world stops this nonsense a million people will have died. And just as we were getting over it all!
Stream of consciousness. Call me crazy. But to me you are the crazy ones. You’ve got to live your life. And it should be your choice. Oh but it’s your choice not to be infected by me you’ll say. Well remember that bubble boy back in the day? There’s your choice now feck off
 
All this and about 40 actually healthy people have died. Christ. You’ve got to go sometime. If you’re self inflicted vulnerable then see you later pal. If you’re old and vulnerable then maybe you had a good innings, maybe you didn’t, but no one sticks around forever.
if you’re one of the unicorns that is cut down in their prime then that is a real shame, but life isn’t fair. It’s a roll of the dice.
Thank god you weren’t fated to a miserable existence or early death just for being unlucky enough to be born elsewhere in the world. And most of the country didn’t give two ***** about that group of a billion or so people last time I checked.
Since when was 40000 even a large number when considering a population of millions.
we’re all ****ed because none of us are evolutionarily prepred to have daily deaths beamed to our pockets on the hour.
covid 19 is just a new way to die. Like being run over by a car must’ve been back in the day. Now responsible for over a million deaths a year, they say. Or plane crash victim. Obesity was a new way to die at some point, I guess. A new way to die. That’s all it is.
We all die. It’s literally the only thing guaranteed in this life.
Some of us would rather go on living while we can.
Hide all you want, you and everyone you know will die some day. On the grand scale you will die very soon. A blink of an eye in eternity.
There will be people who die immediately after this crisis is over. And won’t that be tragic. Lock down, suffer all this nonsense and then get hit by a train or have a heart attack. Imagine if you had every single one of those beamed to your phone.
In fact maybe I’ll make a service you can all sign up to. The day lockdown and corona crazy dissipates you will receive A push notification for every person that dies immediately afterwards. I’ll include some personal stories about how much they were looking forward to sharing a bucket of popcorn down the cinema again. Or something. And how tragic it is. You’ll be in line for about 150000 messages a day mind so clear up some time in your schedules. By the end of the first week after the world stops this nonsense a million people will have died. And just as we were getting over it all!
Stream of consciousness. Call me crazy. But to me you are the crazy ones. You’ve got to live your life. And it should be your choice. Oh but it’s your choice not to be infected by me you’ll say. Well remember that bubble boy back in the day? There’s your choice now feck off
Crikey Third Leg- you are a bundle of laughs and no mistake.
 
All this and about 40 actually healthy people have died. Christ. You’ve got to go sometime. If you’re self inflicted vulnerable then see you later pal. If you’re old and vulnerable then maybe you had a good innings, maybe you didn’t, but no one sticks around forever.
if you’re one of the unicorns that is cut down in their prime then that is a real shame, but life isn’t fair. It’s a roll of the dice.
Thank god you weren’t fated to a miserable existence or early death just for being unlucky enough to be born elsewhere in the world. And most of the country didn’t give two ***** about that group of a billion or so people last time I checked.
Since when was 40000 even a large number when considering a population of millions.
we’re all ****ed because none of us are evolutionarily prepred to have daily deaths beamed to our pockets on the hour.
covid 19 is just a new way to die. Like being run over by a car must’ve been back in the day. Now responsible for over a million deaths a year, they say. Or plane crash victim. Obesity was a new way to die at some point, I guess. A new way to die. That’s all it is.
We all die. It’s literally the only thing guaranteed in this life.
Some of us would rather go on living while we can.
Hide all you want, you and everyone you know will die some day. On the grand scale you will die very soon. A blink of an eye in eternity.
There will be people who die immediately after this crisis is over. And won’t that be tragic. Lock down, suffer all this nonsense and then get hit by a train or have a heart attack. Imagine if you had every single one of those beamed to your phone.
In fact maybe I’ll make a service you can all sign up to. The day lockdown and corona crazy dissipates you will receive A push notification for every person that dies immediately afterwards. I’ll include some personal stories about how much they were looking forward to sharing a bucket of popcorn down the cinema again. Or something. And how tragic it is. You’ll be in line for about 150000 messages a day mind so clear up some time in your schedules. By the end of the first week after the world stops this nonsense a million people will have died. And just as we were getting over it all!
Stream of consciousness. Call me crazy. But to me you are the crazy ones. You’ve got to live your life. And it should be your choice. Oh but it’s your choice not to be infected by me you’ll say. Well remember that bubble boy back in the day? There’s your choice now feck off
I love it!
 
All this and about 40 actually healthy people have died. Christ. You’ve got to go sometime. If you’re self inflicted vulnerable then see you later pal. If you’re old and vulnerable then maybe you had a good innings, maybe you didn’t, but no one sticks around forever.
if you’re one of the unicorns that is cut down in their prime then that is a real shame, but life isn’t fair. It’s a roll of the dice.
Thank god you weren’t fated to a miserable existence or early death just for being unlucky enough to be born elsewhere in the world. And most of the country didn’t give two ***** about that group of a billion or so people last time I checked.
Since when was 40000 even a large number when considering a population of millions.
we’re all ****ed because none of us are evolutionarily prepred to have daily deaths beamed to our pockets on the hour.
covid 19 is just a new way to die. Like being run over by a car must’ve been back in the day. Now responsible for over a million deaths a year, they say. Or plane crash victim. Obesity was a new way to die at some point, I guess. A new way to die. That’s all it is.
We all die. It’s literally the only thing guaranteed in this life.
Some of us would rather go on living while we can.
Hide all you want, you and everyone you know will die some day. On the grand scale you will die very soon. A blink of an eye in eternity.
There will be people who die immediately after this crisis is over. And won’t that be tragic. Lock down, suffer all this nonsense and then get hit by a train or have a heart attack. Imagine if you had every single one of those beamed to your phone.
In fact maybe I’ll make a service you can all sign up to. The day lockdown and corona crazy dissipates you will receive A push notification for every person that dies immediately afterwards. I’ll include some personal stories about how much they were looking forward to sharing a bucket of popcorn down the cinema again. Or something. And how tragic it is. You’ll be in line for about 150000 messages a day mind so clear up some time in your schedules. By the end of the first week after the world stops this nonsense a million people will have died. And just as we were getting over it all!
Stream of consciousness. Call me crazy. But to me you are the crazy ones. You’ve got to live your life. And it should be your choice. Oh but it’s your choice not to be infected by me you’ll say. Well remember that bubble boy back in the day? There’s your choice now feck off

Cool story bro
 
The test is useless, if you don't know this then do some research, the test is being used to generate cases which in turn is being used to instigate these lockdown variants.

Have a look here - https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...s/news-story/f2188f2aebff1b7b291b297731c3da74

Instead, Dr Nabarro (from the World Health Organisation) is advocating for a new approach to containing the virus.

“And so, we really do appeal to all world leaders: stop using lockdown as your primary control method. Develop better systems for doing it. Work together and learn from each other.”

“Lockdowns just have one consequence that you must never ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer,”
  1. The test isn't useless, but your brain is.
  2. There has been an increase in deaths, which is proven (speak to a cemetery or the crematoriums if you disagree)
  3. At the peak, Covid was MORE than the deaths of everything else combined! (maybe ask some nurses that work at James Cook or North Tees if you disagree)
  4. Had we no locked down, the deaths would certainly have been worse, not better! (just look at the graphs)
  5. An increase in deaths has followed an increase in positive tests for the last 8 months, everywhere in the world (maybe they're all in on it huh?).
  6. A decrease in positive tests equals a decrease in deaths, everywhere in the world (maybe they're all in on it huh?).
  7. Death and test rates are different to March/ April, as we were not doing enough testing back then (we're still not doing enough now either mind).
  8. The test works, and is a good marker for gathering information on likely infections, infection rates and likely potential deaths for various scenarios.
Is the test 100% accurate? No
Does the test need to be 100% accurate to be effective? No
Do you need to do the right things with the data, to be effective? Yes
Are we doing the right things? No
Why aren't we doing the right things? Because we have an inept government, and a load of idiot people that voted them in, that don't like listening to experts.

Your argument disagrees with itself by the way. The WHO are saying don't rely on lockdowns (AS THE PRIMARY CONTROL), as in they're saying use test and trace instead (you know, the tests you say don't work, and the trace system that doesn't work), and then wear masks and socially distance etc.

Of course lock downs are bad for the economy, nobody in the entire world doubts this. But there are some that come out of it in a lot better position than others, and I'll bet my hat that it's the selfish ones that voted these selfish idiots in (on average).
 
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