Academy players - too cautious?

We seem to have got out of sync in terms of blooding players through at the right age. There’s a stack of players who mostly should have been out on loan in lower divisions 2 or 3 season back who are now only getting their first team experiences at 21/22/23. Hopefully that can be redressed asap.

Generally speaking I do think we are too cautious. It is a really tricky balance, on the one hand I suspect there’s atleast one academy centre mid who could have performed as well as say Barlaser in recent weeks, but if they had put in the performances he had and taken the flack he had, they might be scarred and ultimately impact their ceiling.
 
motownjunk said:
Harry Chapman whilst didn't play for england as much as Coulson and struggled to too.
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Harry Chapman actually played for England more than Coulson did. He played in the U20 World Cup and was subbed on for Adam Armstrong, in a team which also included...
Dean Henderson in goal, Dominic Solanke, Fikayo Tomori, Ademola Lookman, Ainsley Maitland-Niles, Enzi Konsa, Dominic Calvert Lewin and.... Dael Fry.

Coulson only played twice at U18.
 
Ash88 said:
The current crop of seniors are definitely considered not good enough.
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It really does look that way and I do get the impression that there'll be a massive cull this summer with the aim of fast-tracking the 18-19 year olds. This season has been a massive transition at all levels of the club so it's time to hope that it starts to bear fruit next season.
 
Boro have had Fry, Hackney and Coburn all in the team this season. That’s quite a good reflection of the academy.
 
Bruce said:
It really does look that way and I do get the impression that there'll be a massive cull this summer with the aim of fast-tracking the 18-19 year olds. This season has been a massive transition at all levels of the club so it's time to hope that it starts to bear fruit next season.
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I agree - It was already hinted at by MC that the reason we let Cal Kavanagh go was because he felt others (Finch and Matthews) are further forward in their development. I assume Nkrumah too.

Nero said:
Boro have had Fry, Hackney and Coburn all in the team this season. That’s quite a good reflection of the academy.
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It is, but Fry was 7 seasons ago... We're talking about our current academy.
We've had 7 classes of academy players since Fry, 10~ new players per season (guess)... and only 3-4 have made more than a few mins of first team appearances out of 70~ players?
It'd be interesting to know where those stats are vs. other teams at the top end of the championship, but I think we'd be quite low down.
 
I watched a game a few weeks back when we played Sunderland, they absolutely took us to the cleaners. We scored a couple but it looked like men against boys. Cup competition maybe but our lads looked miles away from first team squad material.
 
Nano said:
Bigger clubs are far better at recruitment. They have them at their academies when they are 5. The best ones all end up in the same few places. Those players then go out on loan and fill the squad of teams down the pyramid. We do the same only we send them lower. They are footballer farms. Those bigger academies are producing enough players to play in the top 2 leagues. We're producing players to play in the levels below that. A successful academy doesn't just produce players for the 1st team. 1 or 2 a season and it is doing its job.

Another big difference to the past was that young players used to play against adults from a young age. The good ones would go into the reserves but now it is just academy players vs academy players with the odd player that needs some fitness. Even if they are talented enough to play in the adult game they aren't necessarily physically up to it so we need to send them out on loan to develop that physicality. Some people expect youth players to rip up the division if they go to L1 on loan but they are just there to learn to play against adults. It is only after they have been on loan we can consider them for the 1st team.
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We also have kids down there from 5 to be fair, nobody can officially be in an academy until under 9 though.
 
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Paulroddam7 said:
We also have kids down there from 5 to be fair, nobody can officially be in an academy until under 9 though.
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But the best ones are signed at 6 and 7 though aren't they.

All the very best under 7s get signed early. They just don't start their academy contract until U9.

Most other clubs will have a much bigger catchment than Boro. A club like Leeds can take kids from Leeds right across to Hull. Down past Sheffield, across to Manchester including Bradford and Hudderfield etc and right up to Middlesbrough. Their catchment population must be 3 or 4 times that of Boros.

Boro, Sunderland and Newcastle are basically fighting for the same kids from Boro, Sunderland and Newcastle
 
Ash88 said:
The current crop of seniors are definitely considered not good enough.

Jeremy Sivi will be 22 in July and can't get in the starting 11 for Harrogate. He's played 400~ mins and been "okay" in league 2.
Isaiah Jones was considered a late bloomer after being in the lower leagues and he started nearly every game in his debut season for us in the championship at 22.

Jack Hannah will be 22 this year, and has only played 2 semi-professional games at Darlington
Dael Fry in the same position had already played nearly 100 times for us at that age, and 10 times on loan to Rotherham.

George Gitau will be 21 this year, and he was playing on loan at Marske in December - the 7th tier of English football - 5 divisions below us.
Hayden Coulson broke into our first team under Woodgate and played 29 games for us at the same age.

Jack Stott, 20 years old, can't get his game at Gateshead in the National League.
Ben Beals, 20 years old, spent the first half of the season at Marske - did quite well but what's next? - Keep him in the U21 till his contract runs out and he signs for Spennymoor like we did Fletcher?
Frankie Whelan, Fenton John - Both 20, both played nearly 100 times at youth level - If they still can't get a decent loan, they'll never be good enough.

It's a brutal strategy but we probably need a complete cull of youth players over the summer
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I have a mate who plays for Gateshead and he says Stott is nowhere near the levels of the established Gateshead players. He joined them after his loan with York was cut short and Gateshead were in the midst of an injury crisis. I actually thought Stott was 17, 18 until I read this thread tbh. He’s spent most of his time there on the bench.

I think it’s telling that someone like Bilongo can be around our senior group for a while and then end up at Ebsfleet, four divisions below us.

I’d also say it tricky to get some young players from a Championship club out on loan into League One, top end of League Two when you look at the turnover of managers there.

Who was the last Boro youngster to go out on loan and really tear it up, to the point where they were nailed on to come into our senior team/match-day squad when they returned? Are we going back to Downing and Johnson? I definitely think we have a bit of an issue with developing players.

We produce lots of good young teenagers but they struggle to make the step into the senior game. Then again I imagine lots of clubs experience this, we only notice it more with our own youngsters.
 
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viv_andersons_nana said:
I have a mate who plays for Gateshead and he says Stott is nowhere near the levels of the established Gateshead players. He joined them after his loan with York was cut short and Gateshead were in the midst of an injury crisis. I actually thought Stott was 17, 18 until I read this thread tbh. He’s spent most of his time there on the bench.
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Yeah this is my point. If you're a 20+ year old who has 50+ appearances for Boro U21 you should be walking into the Gateshead team.
Most of our older youth players are leaving us and joining local semi-pro teams like Whitby/Stockton/Spennymoor. Stott will be another one added to that list.

viv_andersons_nana said:
I think it’s telling that someone like Bilongo can be around our senior group for a while and then end up at Ebbsfleet, four divisions below us.
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Bilongo is the only player from the older crop I'd like to keep. Our U21s only lost 1 game in 8 with him in the team - against top of the league West Ham - They haven't won in 3 without him.
Ebbsfleet have also won every game since he joined, scoring 8 and only conceding 1 - I believe he's got a couple of goals from CB too.

Three divisions below us so you would expect him to do well - But he's doing well where others, Stott being a good example, are doing very poorly.

He'll be 23 at the start of the next season so possibly too late for him - but he needs to be loaned out to League 2 and to be playing regularly next season.

viv_andersons_nana said:
I’d also say it tricky to get some young players from a Championship club out on loan into League One, top end of League Two when you look at the turnover of managers there.

Who was the last Boro youngster to go out on loan and really tear it up, to the point where they were nailed on to come into our senior team/match-day squad when they returned? Are we going back to Downing and Johnson? I definitely think we have a bit of an issue with developing players.
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They don't need to tear it up, they just need a consistent run of games.
Coburn played 40 games (scored 10) for Bristol City last season. Hackney played 30~ games for Scunthorpe before playing for us.
Fry had a short spell at Rotherham. Ben Gibson went to Plymouth in League 2 then Tranmere in League 1.

Very few of our past academy players have came into the Boro team without spending time on loan elsewhere beforehand.
 
Ash88 said:
They don't need to tear it up, they just need a consistent run of games.
Coburn played 40 games (scored 10) for Bristol City last season. Hackney played 30~ games for Scunthorpe before playing for us.
Fry had a short spell at Rotherham. Ben Gibson went to Plymouth in League 2 then Tranmere in League 1.

Very few of our past academy players have came into the Boro team without spending time on loan elsewhere beforehand.
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Hackney has 84 League 1/Championship appearances before he's 22. (Would have 100 if he hadn't been injured this season)
Coburn has 77 League 1/Championship appearances before he's 22.
Rogers has 85 League 1/Championship appearances before he's 22

Looking further back to successful players to come out the academy

Fry had 63 Championship appearances before he was 22
Wheater had 68 PL appearances before he was 22
Andrew Taylor had 93 PL appearances before he was 22
James Morrison 102 PL appearances before he was 22
Stewart Downing 106 PL appearances before he was 22
Adam Johnson 129 PL/Championship appearances before he was 22
Lee Cattermole 123 PL appearances before he was 22

Basically, if they are good enough they will be breaking through into the team or playing at a decent level on loan well before they are 22. Usually by the time they are 19 or 20 played a significant amount of matches by the time they are 22.

If they are 22 or 23 and not able to break into the team then it's not going to happen for them. That's why I find the Gilbert move strange. He'd never managed to get any significant number of senior appearances by the age of 22. It's very unlikely it's ever going to happen for him. Of course there is the odd anomaly like Isiah Jones who was a bit later but he still had 11 Championship appearances before he was 22.
 
B_G said:
Hackney has 84 League 1/Championship appearances before he's 22. (Would have 100 if he hadn't been injured this season)
Coburn has 77 League 1/Championship appearances before he's 22.
Rogers has 85 League 1/Championship appearances before he's 22

Looking further back to successful players to come out the academy

Fry had 63 Championship appearances before he was 22
Wheater had 68 PL appearances before he was 22
Andrew Taylor had 93 PL appearances before he was 22
James Morrison 102 PL appearances before he was 22
Stewart Downing 106 PL appearances before he was 22
Adam Johnson 129 PL/Championship appearances before he was 22
Lee Cattermole 123 PL appearances before he was 22

Basically, if they are good enough they will be breaking through into the team or playing at a decent level on loan well before they are 22. Usually by the time they are 19 or 20 played a significant amount of matches by the time they are 22.

If they are 22 or 23 and not able to break into the team then it's not going to happen for them. That's why I find the Gilbert move strange. He'd never managed to get any significant number of senior appearances by the age of 22. It's very unlikely it's ever going to happen for him. Of course there is the odd anomaly like Isiah Jones who was a bit later but he still had 11 Championship appearances before he was 22.
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Gilbert has 28 at 22, so more than Jones. Maybe Gilbert is another anomaly. We don’t know. Nobody does, do they, not if we’re being honest, because we don’t see them day to day. I would expect him to go somewhere on loan next season though. It’s no good spending months on the bench, picking up bits and pieces here and there.
 
I think it's difficult to say. A young player usually 'shoots to stardom' through necessity rather than being actually good enough. An 17 year old won't come into the starting 11 because he is better than the 3-4 senior pros ahead of him.

They come in because of injuries or suspensions and just 'fit' and look the real deal. Yet they probably wouldn't have got a kick had it not been for said injuries.

The point being they just need a chance. They manager or even the player may not actually think they are 'ready'. Yet just take to it like a 'duck to water' . Especially with senior pros all around them.

I'm not sure we are at the point of throwing one or two in. I've given up on the playoffs. Yet probably a defeat at Stoke and QPR away from looking the other way. So still plenty to play for.

That said once we mathematicy out of the playoffs and 'safe' I'd like to see a few given a run. Especially at the expense of loan players who won't be back next season. That or players leaving when contracts runout. No point playing loan player in the final 2-3-4 games if we've no intention of bringing any back.
 
The gap between u23 football and "mens" football is huge, not necessarily ability wise, but certainly attitude and mentality wise. That's why there can be a reluctance from teams to take players at league 1/2/national league level from academies.
 
B_G said:
No he doesn't.

He has 8 League 2 appearances plus 5 Championship appearances and some of those after he turned 22. Has he ever started a match at Championship level? I wonder how many of those League 2 appearances were starts.

Isiah Jones also had a load of lower level appearances which I discounted.
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Apologies, I completely missed read his appearance stats. But he did break through into Brentford’s first team at 18, 19 and played FA Cup matches there. There is clearly talent there to work with. It is a bit odd to sign someone of that profile to keep them on the bench all season though.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
Apologies, I completely missed read his appearance stats. But he did break through into Brentford’s first team at 18, 19 and played FA Cup matches there. There is clearly talent there to work with. It is a bit odd to sign someone of that profile to keep them on the bench all season though.
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Especially a season that's seen as many injuries as this one has. If he couldn't break through this season at 22 years old, just can't see how it's ever going to happen for him. His 5 Championship appearances this season amount 46 minutes and still has never started a game above League 2.

It is a very odd signing!
 
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