Luciana Berger rejoins Labour Party
- Thread starter TeessideCleveland
- Start date
Good grief.
Laughing
Well-known member
BBG quite the shift from the original topic.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
No, not really, This was being discussed right at the beginning of this thread and in fact on Feb 28 2023 you posted the following:-
Scrote
Well-known member
And Luciana Berger played a bigger role in getting us here but you're happy to give her a free pass.
Who is acting like Militant? Do you even know what Militant, or even Corbyn for that matter, stand/stood for?
There is no comparison for anyone with even an ounce of political awareness. Militant were Trotskyite, Corbyn was a North European Social Democrat.
You resurrected a semi-controversial thread from nearly a year ago. What were you expecting?You and the Corbyn cavalry need to grow up and move on. A simple post about somebody brought in by Labour to undertake a mental health review has got the lot of you frothing at the mouth. It's pathetic. I imagine you all sticking pins in a Starmer doll
That doesn't make any sense. The VoNC was part of the sabotage. It was called by Margaret Hodge.
Considering the right of the party were expecting an overwhelming defeat and were given a ton aof air time and column inches to tell everybody how bad things were, the idea that it didn't have a significant impact on voting is ridiculous.
And yet the people you're now putting all your trust in are the very ones who were so politically astute they didn't see that 2017 could be a glorious victory if they pulled in the right direction.
The party members voted for him overwhelmingly. Twice. The vote after the VoNC should have been the end of it, but no, the centrists knew better. Tory rule was a price they were happy to pay (and were happy for me and you to pay too).
And some people still don't realise when they've been gaslit.
Laughing
Well-known member
No I haven't said a single word in support of her. I know nothing about her. This wasn't my point.
If you want my opinion on MP's then I tend not to care too much, as a group. There will be some I agree with and some I don't. If they toe the party line and support the parties manifesto, that is much more important, to me, than knowing them individually.
If Labour have 300 odd MP's it's always going to be a mixed bag.
Laughing
Well-known member
Not seeing the link BBG?
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
Am I missing something (it won't be the first time)?
Scrote
Well-known member
But if you know nothing about the MPs then how do you know if they are (or aren't, in this case - and across centrist Labour under Corbyn) doing these things?
mercury_redstone7
Well-known member
Really
Laughing
Well-known member
Well I would say it's up to th eparty leader to sort out that kind of behaviour.
We have to accept that a lot of politicians are just doing a job, no more no less.
Laughing
Well-known member
I don't understand what my comment from last year has to do with you switching tack from explaining why you think Corbyn lost an election, to why you dislike Starmer. To be clear I don't like Starmer either. However, he will start to reverse the fall into abject poverty we see all around the country. Children going cold and hungry.
Right now I don't see an alternative.
TeessideCleveland
Well-known member
Did the 'sabotage' you speak of 'make him lose those 2 elections'?
2019 wasn't that close
Quite a change from your view just yesterday?
So the good ones are the ones who toe the party line and support the manifesto and occasionally enact a coup against the leadership in order to sabotage any chance of the manifesto being enacted?
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
Well after the 2017 election they didn't raise him up on a pedestal so that they could knock him down again, they just carried on continuously. They are still at it, to this day people still talk glibly about Corbyn's antisemitism even on MSM, and it doesn't ever get challenged. For the record, for all the flak that was thrown at Corbyn over the years he was never actually found to be antisemitic, because he isn't.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
Ah I see.You called me biased so I posted a few genuine reasons why I don't like Starmer to demonstrate that it was much more than simply bias toward another.
Starmer is sticking with austerity though so the cold and the hungry may have to wait a little longer.
This is where I completely disagree. If you measure the fall in poverty the same way we measure inflation then poverty inflation might be lower under Starmer than it is the Tories but he's not interested in the real change that is needed to reduce it. Replace the word poverty with any of economic equality, fair distribution of wealth, improving public services, increasing health/education outcomes etc.
Starmer and the Blairites are happy with the direction of travel, they just think they can do a better job of heading in that direction than the Tories.
mercury_redstone7
Well-known member
There is no comparison for anyone with even an ounce of political awareness. Militant were Trotskyite, Corbyn was a North European Social Democrat.
Big title for believing in the Nordic model (had to google it to be honest) countries like Norway with small populations but big oil reserves and production.
They have looked after their own unlike the UK. I too like the sound of that model, there that wasn't to difficult to do was it ?, could Corbyn have replicated that with our country, and how would be a good answer from you?
Yes Militant where around during the late 80s, a far left movement who opposed Thatcher regime, I can remember Kinnock having a go at them handing out redundancy notices to the council workforce, and at the party conference Eric Heffer walk off the stage. Couldnt believe how long and why Labour couldn't get into power as the years went by. Kinnock was a decent man and a very good orator,
It didnt work for Militant and it fell on its ****. I was in my 20s working as a contractor Meccie fitter in the then British Steel Teesside during those days. Tough days in the 80s I think the Stockton On Tees unemployment level was 16%. Good young uns couldnt get a trade or even a poor job.
I was dumbfounded how despite ruining and closing our Heavy Engineering, Steel and Shipbuilding industries on Teesside it seemed the rest of the country didnt give a fig (even laughed about it as standing joke) and the Tories walked it every election.
Corbyn and momentum, thought he had some reasonable ideas and policies, but was too old when he came to the drivers seat. Wasn't a bloke who inspired people and the media ran away with all sorts of stupid myths about him. Did alright against baggy eyed May, but he was a Brexiteer at heart (bit of conflict not following your political beliefs) and was the wrong bloke to go in against Johnson - who was idolised by the media and the easily gaslit people. They will rue the day they did this.
I've nothing against Corbyn, and as Muttley put it he`s " yesterdays man"
I would like to see Labour in power, Starmer seems to have a chance, I said a few years back back to ex footy legs, Starmer stands a chance because he's one of their own, knighted, well educated, from a humble background - but a safe pair of hands (he knows that just like Blair did)
The establishment will only give you the type of Labour party they will allow us to have. (they know that too) Thats something Ive learnt, perhaps they didnt sit on their hands after the strikes in the 60s and 70`s, but set out to destroy us.
So despite me liking to take the the utilities/railways back, we can only do it beating them at their own game, by getting in first.
I've done OK to be honest despite the Tories being in power, I bought and renovated houses, then sold them on. Worked my balls off at times to keep going and get the things we wanted and needed like most have to do.
I`m perhaps not as well read in politics as yourself, I have other interests, and I was always busy with houses to resell as well as holding down a job and bringing up 4 kids, who all have their own homes and good jobs.
So I shouldn't really care as I'm alright jack, but the problem is I do. I think my old fella gaslit me.
And at the minute, I'm just glad to be around.
Big title for believing in the Nordic model (had to google it to be honest) countries like Norway with small populations but big oil reserves and production.
They have looked after their own unlike the UK. I too like the sound of that model, there that wasn't to difficult to do was it ?, could Corbyn have replicated that with our country, and how would be a good answer from you?
Yes Militant where around during the late 80s, a far left movement who opposed Thatcher regime, I can remember Kinnock having a go at them handing out redundancy notices to the council workforce, and at the party conference Eric Heffer walk off the stage. Couldnt believe how long and why Labour couldn't get into power as the years went by. Kinnock was a decent man and a very good orator,
It didnt work for Militant and it fell on its ****. I was in my 20s working as a contractor Meccie fitter in the then British Steel Teesside during those days. Tough days in the 80s I think the Stockton On Tees unemployment level was 16%. Good young uns couldnt get a trade or even a poor job.
I was dumbfounded how despite ruining and closing our Heavy Engineering, Steel and Shipbuilding industries on Teesside it seemed the rest of the country didnt give a fig (even laughed about it as standing joke) and the Tories walked it every election.
Corbyn and momentum, thought he had some reasonable ideas and policies, but was too old when he came to the drivers seat. Wasn't a bloke who inspired people and the media ran away with all sorts of stupid myths about him. Did alright against baggy eyed May, but he was a Brexiteer at heart (bit of conflict not following your political beliefs) and was the wrong bloke to go in against Johnson - who was idolised by the media and the easily gaslit people. They will rue the day they did this.
I've nothing against Corbyn, and as Muttley put it he`s " yesterdays man"
I would like to see Labour in power, Starmer seems to have a chance, I said a few years back back to ex footy legs, Starmer stands a chance because he's one of their own, knighted, well educated, from a humble background - but a safe pair of hands (he knows that just like Blair did)
The establishment will only give you the type of Labour party they will allow us to have. (they know that too) Thats something Ive learnt, perhaps they didnt sit on their hands after the strikes in the 60s and 70`s, but set out to destroy us.
So despite me liking to take the the utilities/railways back, we can only do it beating them at their own game, by getting in first.
I've done OK to be honest despite the Tories being in power, I bought and renovated houses, then sold them on. Worked my balls off at times to keep going and get the things we wanted and needed like most have to do.
I`m perhaps not as well read in politics as yourself, I have other interests, and I was always busy with houses to resell as well as holding down a job and bringing up 4 kids, who all have their own homes and good jobs.
So I shouldn't really care as I'm alright jack, but the problem is I do. I think my old fella gaslit me.
And at the minute, I'm just glad to be around.
Last edited:
Laughing
Well-known member
We will have to agree to disagree on this point Nano.
I can explain why I believe this, but not sure it will make a lot of difference to the conversation.
mercury_redstone7
Well-known member
Well, I wonder if the Labour party get a letter on the desk saying all the money has gone its in offshore accounts.
Laughing
Well-known member
Ah right, I get it. Too subtle for me when I am only half engaged, work an all that nonsense is getting in the way.
Anywhoo. On that point, that particular bias wasn't what I was getting at. I don't like Starmer either. We agree on that.
I was more referring to you blaming internal party fighting for the reason Corbyn lost in 2017 and 2019. You want to blame in-fighting, and it didn't help, I am sure. Would he have won in 2017? I don't know, I suspect not though. Too many just didn't trust him, incorrectly, in my opinion, but he did nothing to change the perception. Everytime he was interviewed he came across as disingenuous. He didn't know how to be a leader.
On the subject of Starmer and his dishonesty, and he is, you can't really argue with that. Labour are, in my opinion, being quite proffessional about the next election. It's not pretty, I know. They selected target seats and the type of voters they would have to target to win a majority. Then they set their political stall out to attract those voters. It's cynical in the extreme, however it's probably what we need right now.
Another tory term would see us out of the ECHR, no free at the point NHS and millions more starving and freezing to death. Those are the immeadiate issues for me, not whether I like Starmer or not. You could argue that the only way to overturn the 2019 majority was by playing the game in a very specific way, like it or not.