Andy_W
Well-known member
Which would you keep, and which do you think needs to change to win the election, or do you think the election win is already in the bag?
Starmer reneges on nationalisation plans
- Thread starter dorivasmiddlefinger
- Start date
Are some of us not allowed to post on politics threads or something?
Andy I don't know why you struggle so much with this. The Labour Party is meant to be a democratic organisation. It's leader is chosen with an election. There was a leadership election in 2020, not 2019. Starmer pledged 10 policies which he would enact if voted leader in 2020. He then immediately set about reneging on them. It's not that he stuck to them until now and he's only recently been forced to change positions. Within days he was going back on them.
If you and others don't care about that, fine. Not a problem. But you can't complain if others say he unprincipled, or worse a liar. He's given them the ammunition for it.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Energy security too, this is more important now than ever.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Did you miss what happened in Jan-March 20, the months preceding him coming into power? A big pandemic started (a 1 in 100 year event), then about 4/5 months ago, a war kicked off which screwed up our entire energy sector and inflation got jacked up to crippling levels, and there's been hell on during the whole time (none of it under one ounce of his control).
I don't give a toss what he said in 2019 to be honest, the world has changed in a million ways, I care more about what he's saying now, as it's more relevant to now. All the weighting and concentration should be on 2022 to 2024. Labour had zero chance of putting in any of his list/ policies in 2020-2022 as they were not in power and won't be till 2025 at the earliest, lets see what he's saying before we have the chance to vote him into power and what the world/ uk looks like in 2024?
Hang on, you're always telling us its better Starmer keeps shtum on policies until an election. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
I'd suggest reading either the leaked report or the Forde report and rethinking that!
F*ck me are you for real? The leadership contest was 2020. In fact it was Jan to April 2020. Starmers leadership campaign was 2020. Starmer's list of pledges was made and released in 2020. 2020, 2020, 2020, 2020. 2020.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Bit different with brexit when it was one or the other, but Labour were going to struggle there no matter what, but they should ahve outlined their position earlier to build some momentum with it.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Wow, calm down, I thought that started in very late 2019 when Corbyn got hammered, so I might have been out by a month.
When were the pledges released? Was it before or after the massive impact of the pandemic which lasted over two years, or do you expect him to have predicted that better than any modeler could in Feb 20? Should he have foreseen the Ukraine war too?
The more Starmer goes with a narrative that his own policies from 2020 aren't possible now, the more he reinforces a few things.
1) that his policies are bad for the economy.
2) that the tories had the economy in a good place in Jan-April 2020, when he made his pledges.
3) that any problems with the economy now aren't the tories fault, that they're down to "the world has changed".
Its stupid politics.
See the polling linked earlier in the thread. Nationalisation has popular support. Its a clear dividing line between tory and socialist economics. Starmer got where he is hitching himself to it. The smart play is to stand by it as a policy now. The tory way has failed, heres the alternative should be Starmer's line. Instead we get:
1) that his policies are bad for the economy.
2) that the tories had the economy in a good place in Jan-April 2020, when he made his pledges.
3) that any problems with the economy now aren't the tories fault, that they're down to "the world has changed".
Its stupid politics.
See the polling linked earlier in the thread. Nationalisation has popular support. Its a clear dividing line between tory and socialist economics. Starmer got where he is hitching himself to it. The smart play is to stand by it as a policy now. The tory way has failed, heres the alternative should be Starmer's line. Instead we get:
BoroFur
Well-known member
Howay Stu that's disingenuous mate. Andy went on to say was it before or after the pandemic. He didn't ask which year.Have a guessI'll give you a clue. Not 2019.
"Linked up to our mass membership"? "Unite our party"? "Maintain our collectice links with the unions"? You sure they're doing number 10?
They've already reversed 1. Opposing corporation tax inreases being made by the tories. Another policy where Starmers self deprecating line is effectively, let the tories improve the economy before Labour policies damage it.
2s gone as well. Streeting recently said they wouldn't get rid of universal credit and Reeves was arguing against UBIs on the radio last week as she's against universal services.
9s a joke. Starmer's party's record with BLM, GRT, the Trans community and even antisemitism is there for all to see.
Andy_W
Well-known member
1) They might be now, they probably weren't then, could all be very different in 2025-2030. I didn't pay much attention to them as they were a long way/ time from power.
2) Nope it was bad, and going to get worse, but Covid made it a lot worse and then the war even worse than that.
3) They started the fire, covid, two years of the tories and the war made it worse
Changing with the times isn't bad politics, it's not bad in any sense, sticking to old ideals and priorities is bad politics.
Nationalisation does have popular support, but whose supporting it? Labour voters, centre voters or Tories? Then more importantly can we afford it, and is it going to offer cheaper prices or a return on the investment? "The will of the people" can make very bad choice, when they don't know the full facts.
Feb 12th 2020, I was out by about 43 days, now stop cryingHave a guess
Back on Feb 12th:
Coronavirus deaths in the UK: 0
Russian invasions: 0
Inflation: 0.85%
Gas price: Low
Electric Price: Low
Days of Boris in charge: 60
All of the above.
Support for bringing energy companies back into public ownership
To what extent would you support or oppose bringing energy companies back into public ownership?
yougov.co.uk
Again, actually look at yougovs figures that @zzzzz linked. You can filter it by politics. Tory voters are 56% strongly or tend to support, vs 22% strongly or tend to oppose.
62% of leave voters strongly or tend to support. 68% of remain voters. 59% of Lib Dem voters. 76% of Labour voters. 58% of women. 63% of men. Rich, poor, north, south, old, young. Pick whatever group you like they support it.
I'll say it again. This isn't pragmatism. This isn't smart. Starmer isn't the 4d chess grand master. There's no "oh well it might all be different in 2023 or at the next election". This is it. This is what Starmer is about. Accept it. Especially if you're going to spend your time telling everyone else to vote for him.
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How many emojis would fairly mark a comment out as a joke in your opinion?
BoroFur
Well-known member
Oh more than two definitely
Andy_W
Well-known member
Yeah, they recently had the biggest lead any party had had since about 2014, I'd say that's doing the headline text for 10 a lot better than any of you would have ever hoped for. Maybe you want them predicted 200-260 seats?
Sunak is apparently for tax cuts, after inflation is under control, Truss who is more likely to win is apparently for immediate tax cuts. Hard to have a policy on this, until we know what policy gets put into place, and how that's working out in 2024. I'm expecting higher income tax, corp tax the same for the manifesto, but wouldn't nail that flag to the mast yet, there's no point.
Maybe they can make UC better, don't know much about that or what Streeting said. For that aspect I was focusing more on the NHS aspect, which I know they will handle better than the Tories and has been under the cosh for two years.
Not sure how 9's a joke, they've not been in power to do much about this, but I don't see how this would change much due to the pandemic/ war which was my main point for keeping it in.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Seems like one of those comments which you tried to turn into a joke, when you realised when it actually was
You had made my mind up with:
Seems a bit OTT for 42 days, and it being before the pandemic, you not think?
@BoroFur will jump down your neck for saying that because of course it's disingenuous given that I immediately followed it with an explanation. And you haven't even done any emojis!
Here you go I'll explain again:
Starmer's party's record with BLM, GRT, the Trans community and even antisemitism is there for all to see.
When I say Starmer's party I mean the Labour party since 2020 (not 2019
).With BLM Starmer fell out with the organisers by minimising their campaign. With GRT community Starmer's had candidates out delivering leaflets talking about "dealing with" them. With the trans community he's let Rosie Duffield insult and belittle people throughout his leadership. With antisemitism, as always gets pointed out on here, Starmer's kicked Jewish members out of the Labour party in a higher proportion than any other demographic. He always immediately went against the EHRC reports recommendations and got personally involved in disciplinary procedures.