Genuine question for EV owners

Nano said:
To be fair, the greenness of EVs is a valid question. Being marginally better than ICE isn't the be all and end all and it wouldn't be the first time companies tried to pull the wool over our eyes by claiming one thing when the reality was very different. E.g. claims that buying locally grown veg is better because there is no long journey but when you dig a bit you find that the total energy used is less to grow tomatoes in Spain and import them than to grow them under heatlamps round the corner. Or plastic carrier bags are bad for the environment so use a bag for life but a bag for life has to be used 20,000 times to be better for the total environmental cost because of the energy and water used to produce the cotton etc. There are always more questions to be asked, that isn't a bad thing.

If there is a better solution than EV and EV ends up being something that delays us getting there then it means it isn't the optimal choice to make now. However, you can only work with the information we have though and at the moment EVs are better than ICE for the environment, they don't pollute in cities and it reduces our reliance on fossil fuels which we know are bad so any move away from them is good. We're a long way from not using fossil fuels to generate electricity though, even though our usage is decreasing.

I am comfortable that my EV is better for the environment than its petrol/diesel equivalent but I am under no illusion that it is good for the environment. It would be better not having it at all but we are even further away from a reliable public transport system than we are nuclear fusion.
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Only if your car doesn't have tyres
 
Nano said:
To be fair, the greenness of EVs is a valid question. Being marginally better than ICE isn't the be all and end all and it wouldn't be the first time companies tried to pull the wool over our eyes by claiming one thing when the reality was very different.
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it isn't marginally better, it's significantly better, particularly if paired with solar panels and/or renewable supply

Nano said:
If there is a better solution than EV and EV ends up being something that delays us getting there then it means it isn't the optimal choice to make now.
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Perfect is the enemy of good
 
BoroMart said:
it isn't marginally better, it's significantly better, particularly if paired with solar panels and/or renewable supply


Perfect is the enemy of good
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You seem so certain. What's your view on child labour to smash the rocks to gain the tiny amount of battery fuel? I suppose it's a price worth paying.

Where are the used batteries to be stored?
 
Same_as_before said:
You seem so certain. What's your view on child labour to smash the rocks to gain the tiny amount of battery fuel? I suppose it's a price worth paying.

Where are the used batteries to be stored?
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For me it's the same as my view on what everyone buys, which is exploiting child labour to make clothes, shoes, electronic goods, computers, fruit picking, farming etc. It's in everything, and it's abhorrent. More should be done about it, and if that drives up inflation then I'm more than happy to pay that price. Some others can't pay that price though, like all the staff on minimum wage in pubs, shops, who get exploited by everyone in the UK every single day. Could tax the big companies profits more, and peoples high earnings and help out those who are worse off, and supply more foreign aid, I'm all for that too.

It's not the fault of the EV though, that's the fault of the car makers, their suppliers, the governments and everyone who votes for the rich. These EV companies the same companies making ICE vehicles and exploiting child labour everywhere for other aspects, and have been for a century.

They won't be stored, used batteries will be recycled, or reused for the likes of solar storage etc. A used EV battery is still extremely valuable, albeit hard to dismantle at this time, but that will get solved. Do you think there will be used EV batteries in 10 years time stacked up like car shells, at the scrap yard? It won't happen in the EU, as manufacturers are about to be forced to ensure that the batteries become reusable/ recyclable. Nissan, VW and Renault are already doing it, and the others have plans.
 
Andy_W said:
For me it's the same as my view on what everyone buys, which is exploiting child labour to make clothes, shoes, electronic goods, computers, fruit picking, farming etc. It's in everything, and it's abhorrent. More should be done about it, and if that drives up inflation then I'm more than happy to pay that price. Some others can't pay that price though, like all the staff on minimum wage in pubs, shops, who get exploited by everyone in the UK every single day. Could tax the big companies profits more, and peoples high earnings and help out those who are worse off, and supply more foreign aid, I'm all for that too.

It's not the fault of the EV though, that's the fault of the car makers, their suppliers, the governments and everyone who votes for the rich. These EV companies the same companies making ICE vehicles and exploiting child labour everywhere for other aspects, and have been for a century.

They won't be stored, used batteries will be recycled, or reused for the likes of solar storage etc. A used EV battery is still extremely valuable, albeit hard to dismantle at this time, but that will get solved. Do you think there will be used EV batteries in 10 years time stacked up like car shells, at the scrap yard? It won't happen in the EU, as manufacturers are about to be forced to ensure that the batteries become reusable/ recyclable. Nissan, VW and Renault are already doing it, and the others have plans.
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Like I said you seem to be sure.
 
Same_as_before said:
Like I said you seem to be sure.
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That was @BoroMart , but I am more than sure.

The world is going greener, and every decent nation is pushing EV's, there is zero chance that they push this and then allow all these batteries to end up in a massive pile at a scrap yard.
There will be loads of ICE cars in the scrap yard though.

Gotta remember the EV sales are only like 10% now, and the cars sold today are likely to last until passed 2035 at least, by then the problem won't even be a problem, it will be an opportunity. When ICE cars get banned in 2030, it will be 2045 by the time that all those end up needing to be "recycled", and in 2030 we won't even be using the same battery tech, batteries will be smaller, better, and easier to recycle.

You have to assume progression, it's what has always happened and there's even more of a drive for it now. If people did nothing because of "what if" then we would still be riding a horse and cart, actually just the horse.
 
I'm not sure if you are on a laptop or your phone, utilising its lithium battery while postulating that child labour for resources for creating batteries is terrible......it is, but you're a hypocrite for using it on your electronic device.

Child labour is something that is abhorent but it's also something that is reducing and some ethical companies are ensuring it doesn't happen. It's worth stating that Tesla last year stated they will ensure that child labour is not used in its proucts.
 
For me, It's not really about ICE versus EV - I'm just looking for a balance of the best quality, value and reliability. EVs simply can't compete at the moment, this is due to their list price and likely future problems with batteries and technology, etc - if the vehicle is kept long term. These batteries are constantly degrading and this will see a gradual reduction in range and the fact they will have to be replaced or the vehicle scrapped if it's an uneconomical repair. Currently a new battery costs anywhere between £4000 and £20,000. I'm afraid that's not for me.

People do speak of warranties, but I don't trust them due to knowing a bit about how they work. If battery performance isn't as advertised, a replacement won't be offered. There might be a 'software fix' that doesn't really solve the problem. The battery will have to pretty much fail to get anywhere with the warranty. Let's not forget, a battery is expected to degrade - that's what batteries do. I'll take proven reliability over extended warranties any day of the week.

With regards to software updates, they are already out there, but expect a lot more in the future. It will be a major profit making exercise for the manufacture. We know that anything with hardware and technology needs updates. Yes, some of the updates might be automatic and free in the early life of the vehicle. But that won't last, whether it's a new feature or some sort of improvement or fix - there'll be a significant price to pay.

www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-tesla-model-s/

Andy_W said:
My mate just sold the EV he got new, for 15% more than he paid for it, and he's gone and bought another EV unsurprisingly.
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This is exactly my point, hence why I wouldn't buy one and swap my current vehicle. Prices are high and are going up dramatically.
 
JustTheGent said:
. EVs simply can't compete at the moment, this is due to their list price and likely future problems with batteries and technology, etc - if the vehicle is kept long term.
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Again you are JUST MAKING THIS UP. I've told you before, this isn't brexit you can't just repeat the reliability lie and hope it'll eventually stick. You've admitted yourself you have no evidence to back up this lie, so please stop lying
 
JustTheGent said:
With regards to software updates, they are already out there, but expect a lot more in the future. It will be a major profit making exercise for the manufacture. We know that anything with hardware and technology needs updates. Yes, some of the updates might be automatic and free in the early life of the vehicle. But that won't last, whether it's a new feature or some sort of improvement or fix - there'll be a significant price to pay.
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Another Iie. ANd we have the evidence this time: Software updates are free. So this is a blatant lie
 
SmallTown said:
Another Iie. ANd we have the evidence this time: Software updates are free. So this is a blatant lie
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software updates are free currently. There is absolutely no indication as to if this will remain once the parts and service revenue reduces due to the fewer moving parts and reliability of EV's that we hear so much about.

If there is money to be made, the car makers and dealers will take a slice (or even the whole pie), as they have repeatedly lobbied against legislation that forces certain servicing information, data and communication protocols etc to be made publicly available to the 3rd party aftermarket.

The car makers themselves are currently arguing that seeing as the cars of today are so complex, the manufacturers themselves should be the only ones allowed to carry out maintenance and repairs. Think about where that goes in time.
 
Billy69_uk said:
software updates are free currently. There is absolutely no indication as to if this will remain once the parts and service revenue reduces due to the fewer moving parts and reliability of EV's that we hear so much about.

If there is money to be made, the car makers and dealers will take a slice (or even the whole pie), as they have repeatedly lobbied against legislation that forces certain servicing information, data and communication protocols etc to be made publicly available to the 3rd party aftermarket.

The car makers themselves are currently arguing that seeing as the cars of today are so complex, the manufacturers themselves should be the only ones allowed to carry out maintenance and repairs. Think about where that goes in time.
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..... And this relates specifically to EVs in what way? No different from any other manufacturer of technology anyway.
 
Nano said:
To be fair, the greenness of EVs is a valid question. Being marginally better than ICE isn't the be all and end all and it wouldn't be the first time companies tried to pull the wool over our eyes by claiming one thing when the reality was very different. E.g. claims that buying locally grown veg is better because there is no long journey but when you dig a bit you find that the total energy used is less to grow tomatoes in Spain and import them than to grow them under heatlamps round the corner. Or plastic carrier bags are bad for the environment so use a bag for life but a bag for life has to be used 20,000 times to be better for the total environmental cost because of the energy and water used to produce the cotton etc. There are always more questions to be asked, that isn't a bad thing.

If there is a better solution than EV and EV ends up being something that delays us getting there then it means it isn't the optimal choice to make now. However, you can only work with the information we have though and at the moment EVs are better than ICE for the environment, they don't pollute in cities and it reduces our reliance on fossil fuels which we know are bad so any move away from them is good. We're a long way from not using fossil fuels to generate electricity though, even though our usage is decreasing.

I am comfortable that my EV is better for the environment than its petrol/diesel equivalent but I am under no illusion that it is good for the environment. It would be better not having it at all but we are even further away from a reliable public transport system than we are nuclear fusion.
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Don't bags for life need to be used four times?

20,000 wouldn't make sense because it's the same plastic just thicker


The food stuff is right (although it depends on the food, some is better some is worse) although I'd argue most people buy local to support local producers or to get it farm to fork fresher etc rather than for environmental reasons
 
NYboro said:
..... And this relates specifically to EVs in what way? No different from any other manufacturer of technology anyway.
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the manufacturers have tried and failed to make that argument with current ICE cars, and its clearly bull5hiat, as there is a huge diesel/petrol servicing and aftermarket industry across Europe.

They will take another swing for Ev's, you can be 100% sure of that.
 
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