Well done max - f1 world champion

If they had allowed all the lapped cars to unlap themselves would the safety car still have been out when they reached lap 58
 
Nero said:
The Today programme were talking with a barrister practising international arbitration earlier. Unsurprisingly, the barrister stated Mercedes have a very strong case. The Director failed to follow a very clear rule that states in order to restart a race after a safety car, all lapped cars must pass the leader. The Race Director only allowed those between Hamilton and Verstappen to pass, on the request of Red Bull.

I was looking at precedent earlier too. Since 1999 there have been 9 races that finished behind the Safety Car. Each in very similar circumstances to yesterday. It's very clear that a major error has been made by Masi. Mercedes know it and the rest of F1 will know it too.
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Yeah from what I have read today you get the impression if it does go to court the FIA dont really have much of a case. Blatantly obvious even for the casual fan that the rules werent followed.

Completely pointless now anyway, a decision in 3 months in a court takes away any emotion from it, and thats the only reason any of us watch sport. Doubt Hamilton or even the team would want to win like that
 
Otto42 said:
I get that you think it was ridiculous, as I said earlier I don't usually watch F1 and can see why those who are devotees might be up in arms today, but to disparage others with talk of integrity etc....seems a bit much to me. No one died, there was an exciting finish and it's given us something else to talk about today other than Covid-19!
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But those who follow the sport, feel disappointed and let down by the officials. It's the sort of end to a season nobody could have predicted or wanted.
 
Out of interest why don't they say that after a set number of laps if there's a crash requiring the safety car the race is complete, a bit like in cricket after you have completed the minimum number of overs? Or would that encourage 'foul play'?
 
Otto42 said:
Out of interest why don't they say that after a set number of laps if there's a crash requiring the safety car the race is complete, a bit like in cricket after you have completed the minimum number of overs? Or would that encourage 'foul play'?
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I think they have to go on a case by case basis. If Latifi had crashed the corner before, for example, he would have been well off the track and close to an escape raids, so the danger could have been cleared quicker and the cars could have untapped themselves legally and the race could have resumed. As it was he was in an awkward place and on fire so it took a while to clear.

I think it would encourage foul play too. Teams have already been caught engineering a safety car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Formula_One_crash_controversy
 
You win some you lose some. Deal with it.

I still think Lewis got a massive break on Lap 1 by not being told to give the place back. He went off the track and gained over a second by taking a short cut. This massively influenced how the rest of the race panned out. If he doesn't take this short cut he *could* end up behind Verstappen all race.

You can argue Verstappen left him no room to go .... but Lewis left a gap on the inside for Verstappen, he went for it, got ahead and stayed on the track within limits. It was the sort of move Lewis has being doing all season, he should have covered it.

If Lewis doesn't take a big short cut, there is a pretty good chance Verstappen wins
 
Harry X said:
You win some you lose some. Deal with it.

I still think Lewis got a massive break on Lap 1 by not being told to give the place back. He went off the track and gained over a second by taking a short cut. This massively influenced how the rest of the race panned out. If he doesn't take this short cut he *could* end up behind Verstappen all race.

You can argue Verstappen left him no room to go .... but Lewis left a gap on the inside for Verstappen, he went for it, got ahead and stayed on the track within limits. It was the sort of move Lewis has being doing all season, he should have covered it.

If Lewis doesn't take a big short cut, there is a pretty good chance Verstappen wins
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That's an incorrect take on things. Mercedes, and Lewis have lost title before. They've never appealed. This isn't a "win some/ lose some" situation. This is being robbed a race victory by a contrived situation that doesn't follow the rules you're supposed to be racing to.
 
Harry X said:
You win some you lose some. Deal with it.

I still think Lewis got a massive break on Lap 1 by not being told to give the place back. He went off the track and gained over a second by taking a short cut. This massively influenced how the rest of the race panned out. If he doesn't take this short cut he *could* end up behind Verstappen all race.

You can argue Verstappen left him no room to go .... but Lewis left a gap on the inside for Verstappen, he went for it, got ahead and stayed on the track within limits. It was the sort of move Lewis has being doing all season, he should have covered it.

If Lewis doesn't take a big short cut, there is a pretty good chance Verstappen wins
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Didn't Lewis back off a bit after that incident and give some time back?
 
Harry X said:
You win some you lose some. Deal with it.

I still think Lewis got a massive break on Lap 1 by not being told to give the place back. We went off the track and gained over a second by taking a short cut. This massively influenced how the rest of the race panned out. If he doesn't take this short cut he *could* end up behind Verstappen all race.

You can argue Verstappen left him no room to go .... but Lewis left a gap on the inside for Verstappen, he went for it, got ahead and stayed on the track within limits. It was the sort of move Lewis has being doing all season, he should have covered it.

If Lewis doesn't take a big short cut, there is a pretty good chance Verstappen wins
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I couldn't disagree more with that conclusion. For what it is worth I was surprised that Lewis didn't get a penalty for that, or at least asked to give the place up. But it wouldn't have mattered. He'd have kept close to Max during the first stint and if he couldn't overtake, he would probably have benefitted from the overcut by staying out when Max first pitted. Even if the overcut didn't work, he would have been able to attack Max late in the race on far younger tyres.

It doesn't matter anyway as the only way Lewis could have won this race in my opinion would be for him to be the chaser when the safety car happened, so ironically Masi did him no favours with the earlier decision. That being said, I am 99% certain that Masi would not have taken the action he did at the end if Lewis and Max were in alternate positions.
 
Harry X said:
You win some you lose some. Deal with it.

I still think Lewis got a massive break on Lap 1 by not being told to give the place back. He went off the track and gained over a second by taking a short cut. This massively influenced how the rest of the race panned out. If he doesn't take this short cut he *could* end up behind Verstappen all race.

You can argue Verstappen left him no room to go .... but Lewis left a gap on the inside for Verstappen, he went for it, got ahead and stayed on the track within limits. It was the sort of move Lewis has being doing all season, he should have covered it.

If Lewis doesn't take a big short cut, there is a pretty good chance Verstappen wins
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Well the Racing Director/Clerk of the Course saw it differently. I guess he saw that Max forced Lewis into a position where he had no other place to go. Attacking someone inside the racing line perhaps. And it follows if he'd of done it again, he was risking a penalty but he never gone close enough again until that yellow flag restart.
 
I hope they do appeal, and I hope they give the title to Hamilton and Mercedes as that's where it belongs this year.

I have absolutely no expectation of that happening though.

It's sounding like they might not appeal at all now, but even if they do I expect that there will just be a massive pay-off to keep everyone quiet and pretend the season wasn't invalidated at the very last.

I do also agree that gaining the title after months of court cases would go down like a cup of sick, and Verstappen himself has done nothing wrong here.
 
Harry X said:
You win some you lose some. Deal with it.

I still think Lewis got a massive break on Lap 1 by not being told to give the place back. He went off the track and gained over a second by taking a short cut. This massively influenced how the rest of the race panned out. If he doesn't take this short cut he *could* end up behind Verstappen all race.

You can argue Verstappen left him no room to go .... but Lewis left a gap on the inside for Verstappen, he went for it, got ahead and stayed on the track within limits. It was the sort of move Lewis has being doing all season, he should have covered it.

If Lewis doesn't take a big short cut, there is a pretty good chance Verstappen wins
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Hamilton was much faster on the mediums than Verstappen was on the softs with a full 100kg of fuel. Verstappen never got his tyres to work from the start so even if Hamilton was told to give the place back, he would've took over (assuming no crash) and went off into the distance.

The only reason Verstappen was as close as he was is due to the VSC, a brand new set of Hards that he only got about 8 laps of decent speed from and the blocking of Perez.

The Lap 1 incident and the rest of the race (until the last lap) was made irrelevant when Verstappen ruined his Mediums in practice.
 
Opinions .. we all have them... easy to say it wouldn't have mattered.

One thing saying Lewis could have attacked him on better tyres , another thing is actually getting past him (without damaging his/both cars)

Maybe the overcut might not have worked if Red Bull used Peres to lessen the effect, who knows.
 
Harry X said:
Opinions .. we all have them... easy to say it wouldn't have mattered.

One thing saying Lewis could have attacked him on better tyres , another thing is actually getting past him (without damaging his/both cars)

Maybe the overcut might not have worked if Red Bull used Peres to lessen the effect, who knows.
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How would that have worked then?
 
Harry X said:
Opinions .. we all have them... easy to say it wouldn't have mattered.

One thing saying Lewis could have attacked him on better tyres , another thing is actually getting past him (without damaging his/both cars)

Maybe the overcut might not have worked if Red Bull used Peres to lessen the effect, who knows.
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Hamilton was significantly faster and would have done Verstappen on any of the long straights with DRS. Verstappen's softs were done after 8 or so laps and pitting then for new tyres would have left him in traffic behind cars still on faster tyres at that point.

Other than a crash, Verstappen could have done nothing to stop Hamilton without the Medium compound that the Red Bull's get the most out of at the start.
 
I don't know, you would need to ask one of the guys on the Red Bull pit wall they know more than me as to how to do it.

You saw yesterday how Lewis had to really battle to get past the *slower* Peres yesterday. It would have been this 10x trying to get past Verstappen in one piece.
 
Harry X said:
I don't know, you would need to ask one of the guys on the Red Bull pit wall they know more than me as to how to do it.

You saw yesterday how Lewis had to really battle to get past the *slower* Peres yesterday. It would have been this 10x trying to get past Verstappen in one piece.
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No it wouldn't, barring him taking Hamilton out, he would've been a sitting duck on the straights on those tyres at the start of the race. Perez done well to hold Hamilton up for 1 whole lap.
 
Harry X said:
I don't know, you would need to ask one of the guys on the Red Bull pit wall they know more than me as to how to do it.

You saw yesterday how Lewis had to really battle to get past the *slower* Peres yesterday. It would have been this 10x trying to get past Verstappen in one piece.
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Regarding the point about Perez preventing the overcut, it makes no sense at all to suggest this as he would have been behind his teammate and therefore not a factor. So the only question is could Hamilton have gone faster on the mediums than Max on the new hards? If the answer to that is yes, the overcut was on, if the answer is no, it wasn't. Perez doesn't even come into the equation in this scenario (i.e. Hamilton being forced to cede position to Max on lap 1).

Your second point is somewhat moot, given that I stated the only way for Lewis to win was to be the chaser at the point of the SC incident. But for the sake of discussion, if Lewis went long on the first stint due to the overcut not working, he could have pitted under the VSC and gambled on the softs, giving him the chance to go past Max easily. If Max deliberately took him out, he would have risked a DQ.

What's done is done and we'll never know how it might have panned out differently if Max had got off the line first, or Lewis was instructed to cede position on lap 1. But what is certain is that Max had the advantage of being in 2nd place when the SC came out and that, perversely, guaranteed him the win once Masi made his final decision of the race.
 
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