Sao Paulo F1 Grand Prix Weekend

One of the most aggressive drivers F1 has seen in recent years thinks Max forced Lewis off. He would know
#https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/montoya-verstappen-brazil-hamilton-incident/6794769/

It seems weird that today we are waiting for the result of the hearing that asked if we should look at something we should have looked at in the fist place is. Not sure how this will go TBH. Honestly, I think the request to review the incident will be thrown out. The FIA will have to defend it's stewards, regardless of their mistake.
 
SmallTown said:
One of the most aggressive drivers F1 has seen in recent years thinks Max forced Lewis off. He would know
#https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/montoya-verstappen-brazil-hamilton-incident/6794769/

It seems weird that today we are waiting for the result of the hearing that asked if we should look at something we should have looked at in the fist place is. Not sure how this will go TBH. Honestly, I think the request to review the incident will be thrown out. The FIA will have to defend it's stewards, regardless of their mistake.
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Surely they can't throw it out? They can only throw it out if there is to be deemed 'no significant new evidence'. As there was no investigation the stewards wouldn't have checked telemetry for braking points and steering input etc. to see if it was very different to other laps.

The stewards may deem it to be no penalty after looking at it in detail. But as they haven't looked at incident at all you would think all the camera angles not being available till Tuesday would meet the criteria for 'new evidence' and they will review the incident.

Mercedes will be able to call on a dossier of previous penalties for Perez & Norris in Austria and Hamilton at Silverstone at a minimum to justify a punishment.

If there is no penalty the stewards will have to justify why, and it will set a precedent that it is okay to not make an apex, input no further steering angle and simply run the person on your outside off the track.

This seems to already have been decided as not okay, in the three incidents I've highlighted. So it will mean a U-Turn from the FIA/stewards.

Is a three or five place grid penalty for Verstappen at Qatar preferable to Mercedes, or a five or ten second time penalty added on to the Brazil result.

At points in the bag decision, or maybe impact the next race decision?
 
Caesium137 said:
Surely they can't throw it out? They can only throw it out if there is to be deemed 'no significant new evidence'. As there was no investigation the stewards wouldn't have checked telemetry for braking points and steering input etc. to see if it was very different to other laps.

The stewards may deem it to be no penalty after looking at it in detail. But as they haven't looked at incident at all you would think all the camera angles not being available till Tuesday would meet the criteria for 'new evidence' and they will review the incident.

Mercedes will be able to call on a dossier of previous penalties for Perez & Norris in Austria and Hamilton at Silverstone at a minimum to justify a punishment.

If there is no penalty the stewards will have to justify why, and it will set a precedent that it is okay to not make an apex, input no further steering angle and simply run the person on your outside off the track.

This seems to already have been decided as not okay, in the three incidents I've highlighted. So it will mean a U-Turn from the FIA/stewards.

Is a three or five place grid penalty for Verstappen at Qatar preferable to Mercedes, or a five or ten second time penalty added on to the Brazil result.

At points in the bag decision, or maybe impact the next race decision?
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From what I read last night, the argument is a legal one. Can they overturn a decision that was never made?

So the new evidence would be irrelevant in that argument.
 
I get all that and I agree with you. I just think there will be a whitewash to protect the stewards. Also Sainz ran Max off the road on the same corner in the sprint race so RBR could cite that as a precedent.

I'd like to see a 5 second penalty, as happened in most of those incidents above. Making Valtteri second. I think Merc were anticipating this as they got him to push in the last 5 laps when he was 8 seconds behind.
 
Chris_Boro said:
From what I read last night, the argument is a legal one. Can they overturn a decision that was never made?

So the new evidence would be irrelevant in that argument.
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The right of appeal can't be rejected if there is new evidence, without political pressure or meddling from elsewhere.

So if it is reopened the stewards will then review the incident again. As they didn't have a good enough angle to decide if there was a case to answer, they said no investigation during the race. Now the new angles have been released they 'should' look at it again.

As there was no investigation last time they didn't look at telemetry etc. If they do, I don't see how Max can't get a penalty, as Lewis effectively got his in Silverstone for running deep and not making the apex leaving insufficient racing room for a competitor.

How is this different?

If the stewards don't penalise him, you can expect him to do it again more, and he already drives quite aggressively anyway. It also gives a green light for Lewis (or any other drivers battling) to do exactly the same, when the FIA have gone to great lengths to penalise drivers who have done this all season.
 
Caesium137 said:
The right of appeal can't be rejected if there is new evidence, without political pressure or meddling from elsewhere.

So if it is reopened the stewards will then review the incident again. As they didn't have a good enough angle to decide if there was a case to answer, they said no investigation during the race. Now the new angles have been released they 'should' look at it again.

As there was no investigation last time they didn't look at telemetry etc. If they do, I don't see how Max can't get a penalty, as Lewis effectively got his in Silverstone for running deep and not making the apex leaving insufficient racing room for a competitor.

How is this different?

If the stewards don't penalise him, you can expect him to do it again more, and he already drives quite aggressively anyway. It also gives a green light for Lewis (or any other drivers battling) to do exactly the same, when the FIA have gone to great lengths to penalise drivers who have done this all season.
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They (lawyers) are still deciding on the Mercedes right of review, so everything else right now has not even been brought to the table.

If they agree they have a right of review, then it will be investigated.
 
Chris_Boro said:
They (lawyers) are still deciding on the Mercedes right of review, so everything else right now has not even been brought to the table.

If they agree they have a right of review, then it will be investigated.
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Agree, but I don't see how they can't. They didn't have the onboards till Tuesday, which the stewards would have 100% looked at if they were available 'live' on Sunday. Surely that is irrefutably new evidence?
 
Caesium137 said:
Agree, but I don't see how they can't. They didn't have the onboards till Tuesday, which the stewards would have 100% looked at if they were available 'live' on Sunday. Surely that is irrefutably new evidence?
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I suspect this has all been done backwards and they know the new evidence is enough for a penalty. Red Bull are going after a technicality, do you have a right to appeal a decision that was never made?

The incident was merely "noted" with no investigation deemed necessary, so the argument is from Red Bull that as no investigation took place, it can't be appealed against.

I think they will say Verstappen should have received a penalty with the new evidence but as no investigation took place at the time on the evidence available, no further action will be taken.
 
Just to draw on the stupidity of all this, did the stewards investigate the incident to then determine no investigation is necessary?

If so, then is that investigation to investigate something that wasn't investigated appealable?

Clear? 🤯
 
Chris_Boro said:
Just to draw on the stupidity of all this, did the stewards investigate the incident to then determine no investigation is necessary?

If so, then is that investigation to investigate something that wasn't investigated appealable?

Clear? 🤯
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I assume RedBull would also say if Max had been given a five second penalty 'in race' he would have pushed up to Lewis more to maintain a 6+ second gap to Bottas.
 
My view is that Max very deliberately tried to instigate a collision which would have taken Lewis or both of them out. The failure of the stewards to even investigate during the race is a joke and I totally understand why Mercedes are pursuing this. That being said, I would prefer it that Max does not receive a penalty in this instance as this would give Red Bull something to whinge about over the next 3 races and potentially challenge legally post season if said penalty decided the championship. Max does however need to be reprimanded and warned that he cannot drive like this in the next 3 races and if he does go on to deliberately cause a double DNF to "win" the title, he should suffer a points deduction.

As for Lewis and Mercedes, obviously the car is in great shape and therefore they should concentrate on what they are doing first and foremost. Despite everything he says publicly, I really think Max would be devastated to lose the championship and with Lewis suddenly breathing down his neck, he is starting to feel the pressure. Lewis meanwhile will take it all in his stride.

A 1-2 in Qatar for Merc would mean Lewis could take the lead in SA even if Max finishes 2nd to him there. That takes the option of Max crashing into Lewis off the table for AD.
 
WilliamMunny said:
My view is that Max very deliberately tried to instigate a collision which would have taken Lewis or both of them out. The failure of the stewards to even investigate during the race is a joke and I totally understand why Mercedes are pursuing this. That being said, I would prefer it that Max does not receive a penalty in this instance as this would give Red Bull something to whinge about over the next 3 races and potentially challenge legally post season if said penalty decided the championship. Max does however need to be reprimanded and warned that he cannot drive like this in the next 3 races and if he does go on to deliberately cause a double DNF to "win" the title, he should suffer a points deduction.

As for Lewis and Mercedes, obviously the car is in great shape and therefore they should concentrate on what they are doing first and foremost. Despite everything he says publicly, I really think Max would be devastated to lose the championship and with Lewis suddenly breathing down his neck, he is starting to feel the pressure. Lewis meanwhile will take it all in his stride.

A 1-2 in Qatar for Merc would mean Lewis could take the lead in SA even if Max finishes 2nd to him there. That takes the option of Max crashing into Lewis off the table for AD.
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Max is very quick in FP1 so far, Lewis well back, he's saying he is well down on power. Hopefully just a sensor reset of some sort. Looks like passes on the straight only, as all the twists run in to each other, so hopefully they've got the DRS calculations right.
 
Speculating Lewis has his old engine fitted to save the feisty one from Brazil for the last two with those being more 'power sensitive'..............
 
The stewards have denied Mercedes request.

Toto says he's not surprised.

Currently a very testy press conference going on between Wolff and Horner.
 
BoroFur said:
The stewards have denied Mercedes request.

Toto says he's not surprised.

Currently a very testy press conference going on between Wolff and Horner.
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Not surprised, political decision as granting would have opened up too many cans of worms for the FIA and stewards who have no doubt made a mistake in not investigating the incident when it happened.

Expect as LeClerc said, overtaking on the outside is going to become an awful lot harder now, which is great at a time overtaking is hard enough as it is.
 
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