YouGov Poll - 33 Point lead!

Assuming Labour don't screw up they will get a very large majority. Tories may be reduced to double figures which puts them out of government for at least 2 cycles.
 
Easterside_Red said:
No it's probably centre-left now.
But the question was, all tribalism aside, are you saying that left wing supporters wouldn't defend Starmer against such grotesque accusations?
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I would defend Starmer with the same vigour that the centrists defended Corbyn against all the allegations thrown against him.
 
exiledinboro said:
Possibly or a hung parliament

I don't think anyone expects a Tory win, but the Tories have already announced they plan to make their whole election campaign about Keir Starmer. I don't see how he comes out intact with what they will throw at him and he won't have the lefts support 🤔

Labour are offering the same failed Thatcherite policies. You can't then claim or expect things to magically get better if you're going to offer the same policies but done in a slightly different way
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I can't be bothered going over the starmer good v bad left v tory lite debate.

However, it really doesn't matter what sunak throws at starmer, or indeed the press. Sunak has to appear in debates and he is godawful. Tories will continue to fall in the polls, there isn't a recovery coming. The economic forecast is set to get worse, interest rates ecpected at 6.5% early next year. The covid enquiry and the publicly funded defence of whatsapp messages suggests there is some bad news coming there too.

Hung parliament, not at the next election there won't be.
 
Laughing said:
I can't be bothered going over the starmer good v bad left v tory lite debate.

However, it really doesn't matter what sunak throws at starmer, or indeed the press. Sunak has to appear in debates and he is godawful. Tories will continue to fall in the polls, there isn't a recovery coming. The economic forecast is set to get worse, interest rates ecpected at 6.5% early next year. The covid enquiry and the publicly funded defence of whatsapp messages suggests there is some bad news coming there too.

Hung parliament, not at the next election there won't be.
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Whilst I agree with you, I must point out that Johnson never appeared in debates either.
 
Easterside_Red said:
No it's probably centre-left now.
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Based on...?

It's a right wing party now. Between Reeves fiscal rules blocking any Keynesian spending to stimulate the economy, Starmer pledging against nationalising anything, Streetings talk about "reforming" (privatising) the NHS I genuinely don't see what anyone could point to as left wing policy wise.

If you mean there's still a few left/centre-left mayors, councillors, and MPs kicking about within this right wing party then yeah I guess that's something. All on borrowed time though.

If you mean the membership/party conference are still way to the left of the PLP then yes I'd agree with that. Even after the purges. But so what? The membership and conference can't force anything with the leadership.
 
Trug said:
Whilst I agree with you, I must point out that Johnson never appeared in debates either.
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Johnson did appear in tv debates, not all of them, but a proportion. Furthermore, he had a poll lead, so didn't need to win folks over. Sunak finds himself 20 odd points behind and will have to appear in debates.
 
SuperStu said:
Based on...?

It's a right wing party now. Between Reeves fiscal rules blocking any Keynesian spending to stimulate the economy, Starmer pledging against nationalising anything, Streetings talk about "reforming" (privatising) the NHS I genuinely don't see what anyone could point to as left wing policy wise.

If you mean there's still a few left/centre-left mayors, councillors, and MPs kicking about within this right wing party then yeah I guess that's something. All on borrowed time though.

If you mean the membership/party conference are still way to the left of the PLP then yes I'd agree with that. Even after the purges. But so what? The membership and conference can't force anything with the leadership.
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I don’t think you should be too depressed, the Labour government will be picking up the pieces after a populist and right wing Tory disaster show.

Any society which has free education up to age 18, free healthcare for all, a welfare state and an old age pension is already embedded with socialist policies.

All of these things only exist because of the Labour Movement’s efforts in power and in opposition over many many years.

Starmer will come and go, like Corbyn did before him, but Labour will still be Labour and you can guarantee it will be better for ordinary working people.
 
SuperStu said:
I'm not depressed (y)🤷‍♂️ hopefully you meant depressed as a way of saying discouraged or displeased or something. And you don't actually assume people must be mentally unwell if they don't rate Starmer of all people. :ROFLMAO:
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No I didn’t mean that, as you say I meant not happy with him as a leader.

I just think that Labour is bigger than Starmer, he is only passing through.
 
I think Starmer will be a dull but competent PM. Its probably what we need to be honest.

I think fixing what the Tories have wrecked is more than a 1 term job, but I'm not sure that is what Labour will be allowed, especially if we look backwards.

I do not really care that (for example) Burgon and Streeting don't agree on everything. Just get the current charlatans out and start making some changes that will help people.

I'm not even a Labour or any party person, but I recognise that we need the Tories out.
 
HolgateCorner said:
No I didn’t mean that, as you say I meant not happy with him as a leader.

I just think that Labour is bigger than Starmer, he is only passing through.
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Fair enough. There's some truth to that but leaders do leave an impression on the party. Say he does win an election or two and ends up having been leader for 15 years odd - his successor won't be from the left of the party. They've all been purged. So what are socialists supposed to do? Hang around for 20/30/40 years in the hope that eventually the party drifts back to a leader that isn't openly hostile to the left?
 
SuperStu said:
Fair enough. There's some truth to that but leaders do leave an impression on the party. Say he does win an election or two and ends up having been leader for 15 years odd - his successor won't be from the left of the party. They've all been purged. So what are socialists supposed to do? Hang around for 20/30/40 years in the hope that eventually the party drifts back to a leader that isn't openly hostile to the left?
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If you can't make the arguments from inside the party then it isn't your party any more.

It is the same as The Conservatives not being conservative any more.
 
SuperStu said:
Fair enough. There's some truth to that but leaders do leave an impression on the party. Say he does win an election or two and ends up having been leader for 15 years odd - his successor won't be from the left of the party. They've all been purged. So what are socialists supposed to do? Hang around for 20/30/40 years in the hope that eventually the party drifts back to a leader that isn't openly hostile to the left?
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Labour has always been a coalition across the left hasn’t it?

The problem for Labour is that the right wing media machine is able to frighten parts of the working class vote that a very left wing leadership will take what little money they have from them with higher taxes.
 
Unravel_Morrison said:
If you can't make the arguments from inside the party then it isn't your party any more.

It is the same as The Conservatives not being conservative any more.
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You can't make arguments from inside the party for a range of reasons. Fear of deselection by some MP's, parachuting of favoured candidates of the leadership over locally picked and supported candidates. The disciplining and investigation of members for liking, sometimes the most innocuous of social media posts. Kicking out left wing Jewish members for being anti semitic. The changing of the criteria for selecting the Party leader, to the point that the current leader (who I voted for), wouldn't have been allowed to stand. It's no longer a level playing field for those viewed as being on the wrong side of the Party.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Labour has always been a coalition across the left hasn’t it?
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Labour was a broad church coalition of the left and center left until Starmer took over and began to systematically purge the left.

Having a "unit" dedicated to weeding leftists out is more than just a bit of housekeeping.

Ken Loach - a multi award winning director of socialist leaning films - was kicked out for supporting a proscribed organisation. Which doesn't sound too bad until you learn that he only associated with them prior to them becoming proscribed.

And then the narrative shifted to insinuate (but very carefully not accuse him of) antisemitism.

The Labour Party is at war with the left. And it is a fight that Starmer chose to pick. It was entirely unnecessary.
 
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