Why would an Arsenal fan go and watch Spurs

EI_Owen said:
I think how it looks depends on the type of person that you are. If you are en envious type of person or a world owes me a living type, then of course you are going to be angry.

If your are just an average person that is prepared to wait and see how the budget works out, then you probably would have a different outlook.

I’m pretty chilled about MPs going to events and so is my 81 year old mum, she won’t be swayed by tabloid headlines and realises that she’ll be better off with the triple lock rises even though she’ll lose the winter fuel allowance.
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What if you are the sort of person that thinks it isn't all black and white and everything the team I supports does is good and everything the other team does is bad? What if you are able to recognise that there is a difference between policy and behaviour? Can I be perfectly satisfied with their policies and also think accepting donations from wealthy individuals and potentially opening themselves up to bribery and corruption is indefensible?
 
Rayner and Starmer and probably all of them at it.
Naive of them to leave themselves open to this whether it's commonplace or not.

Raynor saying she couldn't afford to be an MP without donations, and I accept that fully...... but that shouldn't include match tickets and Designer clothes. Headline stuff and ammo for Tories that before this has nothing.

Of course in the grand scheme of Tory corruption it's a drop in the ocean but to those struggling to pay for anything, let alone luxuries like fancy clothes and match tickets, it will rancour.

Really poor start from Starmer with this added to taking money off needy Pensioners.
And I've been one of his most vocal supporters.
 
Nano said:
What if you are the sort of person that thinks it isn't all black and white and everything the team I supports does is good and everything the other team does is bad? What if you are able to recognise that there is a difference between policy and behaviour? Can I be perfectly satisfied with their policies and also think accepting donations from wealthy individuals and potentially opening themselves up to bribery and corruption is indefensible?
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Political parties have always been funded, they wouldn’t exist otherwise. Donations are part of that.

I agree it’s not all black and white. I sent back my party membership when it became evident that Starmer wasn’t interested in re-joining the EU a couple of years ago. I don’t like to be in the political wilderness and so I joined the Green Party as their policies were closely aligned to my own beliefs.

I was pro Corbyn, but I could see why he wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea and it was no surprise that he didn’t get elected. I find Starmer a bit bland if I’m honest, but all I want right now is 5 solid years of Labour government without any leadership challenges or elections where hopefully steady progress can be made, the economy restored and taxes spent on the right things.

If they pull that off, I’ll be more than happy.
 
EI_Owen said:
Political parties have always been funded, they wouldn’t exist otherwise. Donations are part of that.

I agree it’s not all black and white. I sent back my party membership when it became evident that Starmer wasn’t interested in re-joining the EU a couple of years ago. I don’t like to be in the political wilderness and so I joined the Green Party as their policies were closely aligned to my own beliefs.

I was pro Corbyn, but I could see why he wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea and it was no surprise that he didn’t get elected. I find Starmer a bit bland if I’m honest, but all I want right now is 5 solid years of Labour government without any leadership challenges or elections where hopefully steady progress can be made, the economy restored and taxes spent on the right things.

If they pull that off, I’ll be more than happy.
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Donations to a political party and donations to an individual are different though. If Lord Alli wants to donate to the Labour party and the Labour party and its members think the best use of that money is on Taylor Swift tickets or a new outfit then the party are free to make that decision. Paying an individual directly for something that has no political benefit, and as reports have shown is even seen as a massive negative, seems to be a lot more susceptible to corruption and bribery accusations.
 
Nano said:
Sometimes people say something that they think is ridiculous to prove a point and actually hits the nail on the head. Lobbying is an absolute scourge on democracy. People of power, MPs and Minsters etc, should not be attending all of these events. There should be no way to get access to them by buying them dinner or paying them to speak at a conference etc. All of this is blatant and it sets the system up for abuse and corruption.

I know it's never gong to change but it should. MPs are not celebrities attending events. They are people doing a job and other people want to influence them and we allow it. The people/businesses/industries with the deepest pockets get their own way and it is wrong.

It's all just snouts in the trough.
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The political system has sadly worked like that for ever. The loudest people currently shouting about Starmer are the Reform Party but there you have a leader of said party selling himself to all and sundry for money - he even did a spell on cameo.com, a website for recording personal messages for individuals in return for a fee. In fact he earned £1m for outside paid work in these last 12 months. Now I am of the view that there's a lot of hypocrisy flying about at the moment because there is nobody that can throw stones in politics at the moment for fear of smashing the glass in the greenhouses. Starter may have copped it but it's being fueled by a RW press who accepted all this stuff for years without complaint and didn't report it. Funny that.
 
Zoophonic said:
The political system has sadly worked like that for ever. The loudest people currently shouting about Starmer are the Reform Party but there you have a leader of said party selling himself to all and sundry for money - he even did a spell on cameo.com, a website for recording personal messages for individuals in return for a fee. In fact he earned £1m for outside paid work in these last 12 months. Now I am of the view that there's a lot of hypocrisy flying about at the moment because there is nobody that can throw stones in politics at the moment for fear of smashing the glass in the greenhouses. Starter may have copped it but it's being fueled by a RW press who accepted all this stuff for years without complaint and didn't report it. Funny that.
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Again, doing paid work is different to being given something for free. Surely this is something that we can all agree on that shouldn't be allowed and use it as an opportunity to demand change to the system. No more second jobs, consultancies, donations, cash for access, cash for peerages etc. Whataboutery about the previous administration or other parties is irrelevant if you believe what they were/are doing is also wrong.

Instead of excusing it people should be demanding change.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I know what you are saying but isn’t that an overreaction?

Wait and see what Labour does for the pensioners who need a handout to stay alive, it might become a lot better for them.

11 weeks in government.
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That’s what the media will be saying though, and that kind of **** sticks for a long time as well. It’s a huge own goal that could so easily be avoided

From the outside it looks like they are all on the gravy train exactly like the tories were
 
Nano said:
Again, doing paid work is different to being given something for free. Surely this is something that we can all agree on that shouldn't be allowed and use it as an opportunity to demand change to the system. No more second jobs, consultancies, donations, cash for access, cash for peerages etc. Whataboutery about the previous administration or other parties is irrelevant if you believe what they were/are doing is also wrong.

Instead of excusing it people should be demanding change.
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Whataboutery is entirely relevant when it exposes hypocrisy from those criticising whether they be on the take themselves or they kept silent when they saw payments being accepted and given out . Don't throw stones when you live in glasshouses.
 
Zoophonic said:
Whataboutery is entirely relevant when it exposes hypocrisy from those criticising whether they be on the take themselves or they kept silent when they saw payments being accepted and given out . Don't throw stones when you live in glasshouses.
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But that whataboutery is less relevant when the people kicking off about this instance of perceived corruption also kicked off about the previous instances. There's no hypocrisy coming from the left.
 
Scrote said:
But that whataboutery is less relevant when the people kicking off about this instance of perceived corruption also kicked off about the previous instances. There's no hypocrisy coming from the left.
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I am not accusing you of hypocrisy. My comments are aimed at politicians but in particular the media.
 
Zoophonic said:
Whataboutery is entirely relevant when it exposes hypocrisy from those criticising whether they be on the take themselves or they kept silent when they saw payments being accepted and given out . Don't throw stones when you live in glasshouses.
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Even if you believe that the current administration are morally better than the Tories and would accept donations without giving anything in return you must realise that by not demanding change now you are once again giving free reign for the next lot to be able to do it as well. Sometimes things only become an issue when they become an issue. The expenses scandal was something that was happening throughout government, on all sides of the commons, and it is only when the news broke on it that it became a major talking point and things were more heavily scrutinised and subsequently changed. This moment is a similar one and we can either demand more from the current people that have the power to do something about it or we let them continue to stick their snouts in the trough and then have nothing to criticise the Tories, Reform or whichever morally repugnant Johnson-alike is leading the government in the future.

I'm actually astounded that people don't think personal donation to MPs isn't something that should clearly be banned. It's literally sidestepping democracy so the wealthy can benefit. All the talk about Tories helping their mates is really no different. Why do you think the Tories helped their mates? Why do you think so many donors have ended up as Lords or Sirs/Dames. It's just outright corruption and it should be indefensible but people are happily defending it because it is their team. That is where the hypocrisy is.
 
Nano said:
Even if you believe that the current administration are morally better than the Tories and would accept donations without giving anything in return you must realise that by not demanding change now you are once again giving free reign for the next lot to be able to do it as well. Sometimes things only become an issue when they become an issue. The expenses scandal was something that was happening throughout government, on all sides of the commons, and it is only when the news broke on it that it became a major talking point and things were more heavily scrutinised and subsequently changed. This moment is a similar one and we can either demand more from the current people that have the power to do something about it or we let them continue to stick their snouts in the trough and then have nothing to criticise the Tories, Reform or whichever morally repugnant Johnson-alike is leading the government in the future.

I'm actually astounded that people don't think personal donation to MPs isn't something that should clearly be banned. It's literally sidestepping democracy so the wealthy can benefit. All the talk about Tories helping their mates is really no different. Why do you think the Tories helped their mates? Why do you think so many donors have ended up as Lords or Sirs/Dames. It's just outright corruption and it should be indefensible but people are happily defending it because it is their team. That is where the hypocrisy is.
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You say the expenses scandal was similar except there is one major difference here and that is the use of public money as opposed to private money. I absolutely object to public money being used and obtained fraudulently and the clamour following the cross party revelations with what was being claimed rightly deserved the public outcry it got and demanded and got change. Some of those claims were absolutely immoral and some were probably illegal theft. ( Duck Houses, claiming for 2nd accommodations whilst depositing members of the family in them). We paid for that. Think Lee Anderson was caught claiming thousand in hotel expenses a few months ago from the public purse and yet he has been very vocal about the latest issue.

When it comes to taking football tickets and some drink and sandwiches I can't get as worked up about it because we don't pay for it but I will acknowledge your general premise that it shouldn't happen if it puts that politician in a position where he is under pressure or influence to favour the donor. I therefore in those circumstances agree.
 
JM14 said:
That’s what the media will be saying though, and that kind of **** sticks for a long time as well. It’s a huge own goal that could so easily be avoided

From the outside it looks like they are all on the gravy train exactly like the tories were
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I used to be concerned about what the media say about Labour but these days I have realised that if they weren’t banging on about football tickets, clothes and £200 to see an OAP through the winter (whilst energy companies make billions) they would just find some other things to bang on about.

And if they couldn’t find anything they would just make something up.

Just the way it is I’m afraid.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I used to be concerned about what the media say about Labour but these days I have realised that if they weren’t banging on about football tickets, clothes and £200 to see an OAP through the winter (whilst energy companies make billions) they would just find some other things to bang on about.

And if they couldn’t find anything they would just make something up.

Just the way it is I’m afraid.
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The Telegraph have been shocking for it so far.
Every day they're releasing a new rumour which is usually total b***ks.

Trying to spin that Labour are going to ban pints, scrap the single person council tax discount etc etc.
 
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