What is a Woman

[Pembroke]

This is interesting and perhaps at the crux of where people have differing views on this.

Am I correct in assuming that you believe that a trans person poses more of a threat to a 'vulnerable' person than a non trans person does?

Obviously vulnerable people need to be protected. What I cannot understand is why somebody who identifies as a female poses more danger? That's the head scratcher for me.

Am I correct in assuming that you believe that a trans person poses more of a threat to a 'vulnerable' person than a non trans person does?

No.

You should distinguish between sexes there. I believe trans women in possession of GRC pose less risk than males. I can't prove that with data.

Gender recognition certification does change individuals rights, and is differing to those identifying as trans.

You may want to consider what a trans person is. Is somebody who just identifies as trans, trans? If you are a male, and you decide you are male are you a trans person? No transition? No diagnosis? We define by a feeling, or in the case of bad faith actors because they want to exploit others .

Now as you are now a trans person and you enter a female space do you represent any danger to females dignity, privacy, or safety?
Our understanding of danger may differ here. I as a support worker if I was to identify as woman and provided one to one intimate care would compromise a female service users rights. I don't have that right to self ID, and patients in social care (Not the NHS) under the social care act have rights to same sex care. Identifying as a women does not change my sex.

Obviously vulnerable people need to be protected. What I cannot understand is why somebody who identifies as a female poses more danger? That's the head scratcher for me.

Somebody who identifies as trans can (not is) be a bad faith actor, a voyeur, a bully to women, violent and use the opportunity to sexually exploit.

Prisons stats observe that those who identify as trans women display higher rates of sexual offending than male and females. Far higher. Could theses figures be skewed by those who are assuming the identity of trans for their own benefit?

Back to safeguarding. 99% of sexual crime is committed by males. Societies response is to act with vigilance and paranoia. Safeguarding measures are paranoid, they assume that males = A threat to women's right to dignity, privacy and safety on the basis of that 99%, so all males are a threat = Society creates single sex spaces for females.

Now lets do those who identify as trans women. No diagnosis. No gender reassignment. No hormone suppressants. No GRC. The individual has NOT changed their sex which is the determinant in the above safeguarding measure. If we ignore that determinant and decide that those who identify as women can use female single sex spaces, how can this not increase risks?

 

[bumface]

Sad reading this, I don't know why I put myself through it.

As the parent of a trans daughter, its a difficult read.

Talk of vulnerable people. In my experience trans are just as vulnerable as others, believe you me.

I can't even begin to understand what she has been through to get where she is.

Please try not to judge or castigate anybody until you have walked in their shoes.

There were times, especially during her teenage and early 20s, when we were just waiting for 'that' phone call.

She spent time in hospital with liver damage she was drinking so much to drown out how she felt - out of place, not belonging and totally confused.

It wasn't until her early 20s that she realised what it was, and sionce she has transitioned we have our lovely, happy, fun child back again.

That means the world to me, my wife and other children.

It does disappoint and sadden me when I see people trying to limit others into what they can do and their interaction into society.

One question for all of you; when you do go out do you plan your journey as to where you can go to the toilet if you are caught short? Do you think - where are the unisex toilets that I can use?

Just one of the things that my transgender daughter has to think about among many.

I understand ther whole argument about safe spaces, but there are no safe spaces for trans people, who are among the most vulnerable in society.

Please try and think about that the next time you do discuss this very thorny issue.

People like Pembroke are just trolling for the sake of it. Don't let it get to you. All the best to you mate.

 

[Quicksilvera]

Sad reading this, I don't know why I put myself through it.

As the parent of a trans daughter, its a difficult read.

Talk of vulnerable people. In my experience trans are just as vulnerable as others, believe you me.

I can't even begin to understand what she has been through to get where she is.

Please try not to judge or castigate anybody until you have walked in their shoes.

There were times, especially during her teenage and early 20s, when we were just waiting for 'that' phone call.

She spent time in hospital with liver damage she was drinking so much to drown out how she felt - out of place, not belonging and totally confused.

It wasn't until her early 20s that she realised what it was, and sionce she has transitioned we have our lovely, happy, fun child back again.

That means the world to me, my wife and other children.

It does disappoint and sadden me when I see people trying to limit others into what they can do and their interaction into society.

One question for all of you; when you do go out do you plan your journey as to where you can go to the toilet if you are caught short? Do you think - where are the unisex toilets that I can use?

Just one of the things that my transgender daughter has to think about among many.

I understand ther whole argument about safe spaces, but there are no safe spaces for trans people, who are among the most vulnerable in society.

Please try and think about that the next time you do discuss this very thorny issue.

Thank you for posting this.

 

[NZBoro1]

Prisons stats observe that those who identify as trans women display higher rates of sexual offending than male and females. Far higher. Could theses figures be skewed by those who are assuming the identity of trans for their own benefit?

Hi Pembroke, can you point me to these stats please?

The last time I looked, there were x6 instances of sexual offending by inmates who identified as trans, as against over a thousand others, both male and female. This was since 2000.

6, while small, is still x6 too many. But we seem to be labelling all transgender people here as bad because of what a few evil people may do. We don't label all men as rapists because of what men do to other women (and men), why do we generalise with trans. And the argument of 'thats not what I am saying here' doesn't hold, because there are a lot of generalisations in this thread already.

Its a dangerous game.

 

[Pembroke]

Prisons stats observe that those who identify as trans women display higher rates of sexual offending than male and females. Far higher. Could theses figures be skewed by those who are assuming the identity of trans for their own benefit?

Hi Pembroke, can you point me to these stats please?

The last time I looked, there were x6 instances of sexual offending by inmates who identified as trans, as against over a thousand others, both male and female. This was since 2000.

6, while small, is still x6 too many. But we seem to be labelling all transgender people here as bad because of what a few evil people may do. We don't label all men as rapists because of what men do to other women (and men), why do we generalise with trans. And the argument of 'thats not what I am saying here' doesn't hold, because there are a lot of generalisations in this thread already.

Its a dangerous game.

Are you referring to a recent piece in the Guardian? Could you provide a link to those stats. I will also provide actual links to evidence, rather than anecdotal references.

I don't use generalisations with trans. I am making distinctions between those possessing GRC, and those who do not, and those who identify as trans. They are not the same.

We should NOT be making generalisations. Societies approaches should be evidence led. In regards to safeguarding we look at our male sex as the threat, we all represent as a sex a threat and this is an evidence led approach. Abandoning that approach for trans self ID without evidence and altering how our sex based laws and policies work to protect the vulnerable would be dangerous.

 

[bumface]

Are you referring to a recent piece in the Guardian? Could you provide a link to those stats. I will also provide actual links to evidence, rather than anecdotal references.

I don't use generalisations with trans. I am making distinctions between those possessing GRC, and those who do not, and those who identify as trans. They are not the same.

We should NOT be making generalisations. Societies approaches should be evidence led. In regards to safeguarding we look at our male sex as the threat, we all represent as a sex a threat and this is an evidence led approach. Abandoning that approach for trans self ID without evidence and altering how our sex based laws and policies work to protect the vulnerable would be dangerous.

Just f*ck of you boring troll.

 

[theboydom]

I watched this documentary today, and it had me in tears in places. The vulnerable highlighted in it are the kids who are being placed on hormones and frankly being mutilated with little evidence of the long term consequences. I looked up Matt Walsh's show as a result and the first 10 minutes of the most recent covered an investigation they'd done where their producer had rung a trans healthcare provider requiring a testicle removal (orchidectomy) and was granted one over the phone! The irony being here that the US health insurance companies are queuing up to fund this type of work, whereas a trans kid who changes their mind and detransitions loses their insurance cover! This poorly regulated type of medical intervention scandal is already over here in the UK in the form of the Tavistock, where the pressure to only allow one pathway for those poor souls with gender dysphoria leads to a lack of mental health support and a rush to hormone blockers and surgery. It is a massive scandal waiting to blow open in the US, as any insurer paying for this type of surgery is raising the premiums of other operations to fund it! The referral that came through for the producer also stated that he was suffering from gender dysphoria even though he stated on the call that he was not. Kids need to be protected from the greedy healthcare companies and given proper mental health support.

 

[NZBoro1]

I watched this documentary today, and it had me in tears in places. The vulnerable highlighted in it are the kids who are being placed on hormones and frankly being mutilated with little evidence of the long term consequences. I looked up Matt Walsh's show as a result and the first 10 minutes of the most recent covered an investigation they'd done where their producer had rung a trans healthcare provider requiring a testicle removal (orchidectomy) and was granted one over the phone! The irony being here that the US health insurance companies are queuing up to fund this type of work, whereas a trans kid who changes their mind and detransitions loses their insurance cover! This poorly regulated type of medical intervention scandal is already over here in the UK in the form of the Tavistock, where the pressure to only allow one pathway for those poor souls with gender dysphoria leads to a lack of mental health support and a rush to hormone blockers and surgery. It is a massive scandal waiting to blow open in the US, as any insurer paying for this type of surgery is raising the premiums of other operations to fund it! The referral that came through for the producer also stated that he was suffering from gender dysphoria even though he stated on the call that he was not. Kids need to be protected from the greedy healthcare companies and given proper mental health support.

I can't speak for my daughter, but I think like the majority of people she would be outraged at what is being made under the umbrella of transitioning.

It is a area that needs regulation, but has probably been allowed to be abused because of the fact that we can't have a proper, sensible grown up conversation about it because some people have such polarising veiws. Until this happens and transgender rights are accepted by the majority of the population this will not happen and there will be unscrupulous people who will take advantage.

However, it must not be forgotten that the Tavistock has done lost of good work. I did read (think it was the Gruniad) that the Dr who did the report into the clinic had interests in another in the SW that would benefit if the Tavistock closed.

 

[mborolad01642]

The people you dont agree with you call them 'Nutters' - have some dignity and respect, stop calling people such derogatory names, based on your perception of their mental health.

But its ok to call someone a crank?

 

[mborolad01642]

A woman is a female human, who is born with female genitalia including vagina, ovaries, fallopian tubes and have xx chromosomes.

WooooHooooo - thankyou!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rofesleg]

Just f*ck of you boring troll.

Is it true that you are the captain of the Bumfaced Debating Team?

 

[Colgates_shaving_foam]

Am I correct in assuming that you believe that a trans person poses more of a threat to a 'vulnerable' person than a non trans person does?

No.

You should distinguish between sexes there. I believe trans women in possession of GRC pose less risk than males. I can't prove that with data.

Gender recognition certification does change individuals rights, and is differing to those identifying as trans.

You may want to consider what a trans person is. Is somebody who just identifies as trans, trans? If you are a male, and you decide you are male are you a trans person? No transition? No diagnosis? We define by a feeling, or in the case of bad faith actors because they want to exploit others .

Now as you are now a trans person and you enter a female space do you represent any danger to females dignity, privacy, or safety?
Our understanding of danger may differ here. I as a support worker if I was to identify as woman and provided one to one intimate care would compromise a female service users rights. I don't have that right to self ID, and patients in social care (Not the NHS) under the social care act have rights to same sex care. Identifying as a women does not change my sex.


Somebody who identifies as trans can (not is) be a bad faith actor, a voyeur, a bully to women, violent and use the opportunity to sexually exploit.

Prisons stats observe that those who identify as trans women display higher rates of sexual offending than male and females. Far higher. Could theses figures be skewed by those who are assuming the identity of trans for their own benefit?

Back to safeguarding. 99% of sexual crime is committed by males. Societies response is to act with vigilance and paranoia. Safeguarding measures are paranoid, they assume that males = A threat to women's right to dignity, privacy and safety on the basis of that 99%, so all males are a threat = Society creates single sex spaces for females.

Now lets do those who identify as trans women. No diagnosis. No gender reassignment. No hormone suppressants. No GRC. The individual has NOT changed their sex which is the determinant in the above safeguarding measure. If we ignore that determinant and decide that those who identify as women can use female single sex spaces, how can this not increase risks?

Are you a real person?

Sounds like chat GPT just mind sharted a load of s***.

Anyway, cool story bro.

 

[BoroBosco]

Anyone who pretends to be someone else, as a cover to take advantage or abuse someone else is a problem

So you do actually understand the problem but because your overriding desire is to feel inclusive you ignore it.

If that is the case, then that's not a trans matter,

Unfortunately the trans lobby have made it a trans problem.

By insisting that trans women are women and that if a man says he's a woman then he is, they have opened the door for abusers to take advantage.

So what do we do. Do we say sod the women, let them take the risk with abusive men getting in their spaces or do we try to reduce the risk by continuing to insist that women only spaces are for women.

The vast majority of men are not abusers but using the same risk reduction principle we exclude males from female spaces and oddly nobody objects.

 

[Quicksilvera]

So you do actually understand the problem but because of your overriding desire is to feel inclusive you ignore it.



Unfortunately the trans lobby have made it a trans problem.

By insisting that trans women are women and that if a man says he's a woman then he is, they have opened the door for abusers to take advantage.

So what do we do. Do we say sod the women, let them take the risk with abusive men getting in their spaces or do we try to reduce the risk by continuing to insist that women only spaces are for women.

The vast majority of men are not abusers but using the same risk reduction principle we exclude males from female spaces and oddly nobody objects.

Why even take the time to post this drivel? Oddly nobody objects to males being allowed into female spaces?

 

[BoroBosco]

Can't you read?

 

[Loop]

The only ones who actually lose out in this mess are women, I feel sad for them.

 

[Chutney]

This is a really difficult subject, made all the more so by the behaviour of some of the most voluble participants in the debate.

...

Will now don a crash helmet and try not to get dragged into this.

A bit narcissistic to be quoting myself, but that hardly took Nostradamus, did it.

Have always said there's no point being right if you're a cūñt about it. Even more so if you're only half right.

 

[Alzi]

This thread is an example of why tories are keen to push their vile culture war bollox.

It’s sad people can’t just have empathy and kindness to others.

The whataboutery about child abuse / sexual assaults etc are nothing more than propaganda out of a fascist playbook. Of course people can find examples that will suit their narrative.

I’d like to think we are all pretty reasonable people here and would like everyone to be safe from attacks, abuse etc regardless of how we identity.

 

[SmallTown]

and given proper mental health support.

Trans is a mental illness. There you have it. Same thing they said about homosexuals last century

 

[SmallTown]

This thread is an example of why tories are keen to push their vile culture war bollox.

It’s sad people can’t just have empathy and kindness to others.

The whataboutery about child abuse / sexual assaults etc are nothing more than propaganda out of a fascist playbook. Of course people can find examples that will suit their narrative.

I’d like to think we are all pretty reasonable people here and would like everyone to be safe from attacks, abuse etc regardless of how we identity.

Well said. A bit of reason in a sea of anger.

For what it's worse, it's a serious issue and it's a shame we have to be so entrenched that we all take extreme views. I am 100% on board with trans rights, for example. But I'm less clear and more reactionary when it comes to trans people in sports. No matter how you dress it up the average man is physically bigger and stronger than the average woman. Which is why most sports have gander categories. Muddying these waters creates an uneven and potentially dangerous playing field.

But, in general life: I treat trans people as I treat CIS people. With respect unless they show me a reason not to. The fact some of the bigots cling on to an example set by a single rapist is disturbing. They are focusing on the "problen" that the person was trans? Surely the problem is the person was a rapist?