West Ham v Chelsea - VAR again

The Card Cheat said:
It doesn't need to be stated. It's like asking where is it stated that the Chelsea player having the shot kicked it with his foot. It's extremely obvious it hits his hand, that wasn't the issue.
Click to expand...

We don't know why the ref didn't give the penalty, it is extremely relevant as to what he thinks and it's then up to VAR to clearly disprove it.

If the ref said it's not a penalty because he thinks his hand was in a natural position as he goes down to block it, the VAR cannot overrule that assessment, no matter how wrong the referee was on this occasion.

If the ref thought it comes of his knee, then it's a different matter.

Screenshot_20230212_101539_Chrome.jpg
 
Last edited:
Chris_Boro said:
We don't know why the ref didn't give the penalty, it is extremely relevant as to what he thinks and it's then up to VAR to clearly disprove it.

If the ref said it's not a penalty because he thinks his hand was in a natural position as he goes down to block it, the VAR cannot overrule that assessment, no matter how wrong the referee was on this occasion.

If the ref thought it comes of his knee, then it's a different matter.
Click to expand...
But VAR could have said his hand clearly and obviously wasn't in a natural postion.

Which would be objectively true.
 
Let the ref's, ref.

i saw absolutely nothing in the English premiership (via Twitter/sky/MotD) for any instance were VAR should have been used yesterday.

its making a farce of the game in that league.

(same for the fa cup - how you can have VAR in one game, but not another/replay depending on the club/ground league status is madness, its two different set of rules in the same competition, thats not a level playing field.)
 
The rules of VAR require changing to allow it to recommend referees view the monitor if their opinion contradicts the on field decision.

The downside to this is obviously time out the game, be the correct decision should be paramount. The referee had a split second to decide if the defenders arm was in a natural position.
 
Chris_Boro said:
No they can't as that is a subjective opinion.
Click to expand...
"For subjective penalty decisions, such as for a foul or for a handball, the VAR will look to identify a “clear and obvious error”."

The "subjective" there is referring to the decision type (where e.g. offside is black and white and, therefore, objective.

The defender palmed the ball away after moving his hand into it's path. A subjective opinion.

The ball hit the defender's hand. An objective truth.

At the very least VAR should have asked the ref to check the monitor.
 
Scrote said:
"For subjective penalty decisions, such as for a foul or for a handball, the VAR will look to identify a “clear and obvious error”."

The "subjective" there is referring to the decision type (where e.g. offside is black and white and, therefore, objective.

The defender palmed the ball away after moving his hand into it's path. A subjective opinion.

The ball hit the defender's hand. An objective truth.

At the very least VAR should have asked the ref to check the monitor.
Click to expand...

It's not a clear and obvious error if the referee has told VAR that he believes it was in a natural position for his hand to be in, it's not for VAR to tell him he is wrong.

The "objective truth" at that point is that the handball becomes accidental and therefore not handball.
 
Chris_Boro said:
It's not a clear and obvious error if the referee has told VAR that he believes it was in a natural position for his hand to be in, it's not for VAR to tell him he is wrong.

The "objective truth" at that point is that the handball becomes accidental and therefore not handball.
Click to expand...
That makes no sense. You're saying that a ref can effectively ban the use of VAR within a match.

The ref can say he thinks it was accidental.

VAR can tell him to go and check it on the monitor.

The ref can then stick with his decision if he wants to.

The ref should have checked in this instance and VAR should have instructed him to. Not doing so makes a mockery of the whole system.
 
Scrote said:
What about the Brentford goal against Arsenal?
Click to expand...
That was a very bad mistake by the VAR referee. I accept that this incident could be used as a fair criticism of VAR, but that’s not what this thread was about. It’s about the penalty incident in the West Ham v Chelsea game.

As an aside, personally I don’t like the way they use VAR to judge offsides to such a marginal degree. I think it’s impossible to be that accurate when using still 2D images of a dynamic 3D situation. I’d prefer if they let the Assistant Referee make the decision and then reviewed it for a clear and obvious error, using an ‘umpire’s call’ approach to marginal decisions.
 
Scrote said:
That makes no sense. You're saying that a ref can effectively ban the use of VAR within a match.

The ref can say he thinks it was accidental.

VAR can tell him to go and check it on the monitor.

The ref can then stick with his decision if he wants to.

The ref should have checked in this instance and VAR should have instructed him to. Not doing so makes a mockery of the whole system.
Click to expand...

No, VAR cannot do that, it has to be a clear and obvious error for VAR to ask the referee to use the monitor.

If the referee has told the VAR that he believes that his hand was in a natural position then VAR cannot tell him he might be wrong as he has seen it, it's entirely subjective.

This is my original point in this thread, we simply do not know what the referee has said his reason was for no penalty. All we can infer is that his opinion was clear and total for VAR to not intervene, especially after such a short check.

This is the problem with VAR, it still heavily rely's on the instant opinion of the referee.

If the referee said to the VAR he wasn't sure or thinks it came off his knee first etc and then VAR made the call, that's a different matter entirely. I doubt we'll ever know.
 
Last edited:
Chris_Boro said:
No, VAR cannot do that, it has to be a clear and obvious error for VAR to ask the referee to use the monitor.

If the referee has told the VAR that he believes that his hand was in a natural position then VAR cannot tell him he might be wrong as he has seen it, it's entirely subjective.
Click to expand...
That's incorrect.

VAR can ask the referee to review an incident that falls within VAR's purview - in this case: "penalty kick offence not penalised".

It doesn't matter what the referee has decided. VAR is independent in that respect.

The referee doesn't have to review but VAR should have recommended it in this case. Maybe they did and the ref decided he didn't need a review - that's possibly what happened.

As we've seen from the replays though, the ref was clearly wrong and VAR should (and could) have made that known.
 
Scrote said:
That's incorrect.

VAR can ask the referee to review an incident that falls within VAR's purview - in this case: "penalty kick offence not penalised".

It doesn't matter what the referee has decided. VAR is independent in that respect.

The referee doesn't have to review but VAR should have recommended it in this case. Maybe they did and the ref decided he didn't need a review - that's possibly what happened.

As we've seen from the replays though, the ref was clearly wrong and VAR should (and could) have made that known.
Click to expand...

No it can't, I'm not sure how many more times I can say it. VAR can only request the referee go to the pitch side monitor if there has been a clear and obvious error and the threshold for that is very high.

If the referee has said he's seen it, and believes the hand was is a natural position, VAR then disagreeing with that turns it into a subjective opinion.

Only the referee can instigate a check that removes the clear and obvious clause.

Screenshot_20230212_143727_Chrome.jpg
Just to add, there main issue VAR and referees are facing is there are now too many grey areas in the rules which turn simple decisions into debate, such as "clear and obvious" (what it that?) and "natural position" in handballs.

Because of these grey areas, referees cannot be deemed as right or wrong in the rules of the game, which then has a knock on to VAR and the "clear and obvious" clause.
 
Last edited:
Chris_Boro said:
No it can't, I'm not sure how many more times I can say it.
Click to expand...
You can say it as many times as you like. You'll still be wrong. You're arguing against yourself in the above post.

If there wasn't a clear and obvious error then there wouldn't be any controversy.

At some point VAR must have either (a) decided there was nothing untoward and therefore no reason to alert the ref, or (b) alerted the ref to the movement of the hand towards the ball. There are no other options.

If (a) then the VAR official got it wrong and it adds to the vast back catalogue of VAR howlers.

If (b) then the ref decided not to use the monitor despite being advised to.

There isn't an option where the ref tells VAR he saw everything and doesn't want any advice either way.
 
Johnny Vincents Motorbike said:
Let the ref's, ref.

i saw absolutely nothing in the English premiership (via Twitter/sky/MotD) for any instance were VAR should have been used yesterday.

its making a farce of the game in that league.

(same for the fa cup - how you can have VAR in one game, but not another/replay depending on the club/ground league status is madness, its two different set of rules in the same competition, thats not a level playing field.)
Click to expand...
The VAR system has had so many failures of late but yesterday’s failings were a complete disaster and cost the league a lot of black eyes. I think we’ve all had enough of it.
 
Scrote said:
You can say it as many times as you like. You'll still be wrong. You're arguing against yourself in the above post.

If there wasn't a clear and obvious error then there wouldn't be any controversy.

At some point VAR must have either (a) decided there was nothing untoward and therefore no reason to alert the ref, or (b) alerted the ref to the movement of the hand towards the ball. There are no other options.

If (a) then the VAR official got it wrong and it adds to the vast back catalogue of VAR howlers.

If (b) then the ref decided not to use the monitor despite being advised to.

There isn't an option where the ref tells VAR he saw everything and doesn't want any advice either way.
Click to expand...

No I'm not, I'm stating and showing the rules of VAR, if you think I'm wrong, show me and not just your own interpretations.

The current rules of handball (link) allow the referee to make an interpretation of the laws around natural position, if the referee has decided the defender's arm was is a natural position based on his body movement and momentum, then he cannot be clearly wrong in the laws of the game. The opposite is also true.

VAR cannot therefore tell the referee his interpretation of a subjective law is wrong, there is no clear and obvious error. There *has* to be a clear and obvious error for VAR to intervene, there is no scenario where VAR can simply ask the referee to double check his interpretation.

Your position is that the handball decision is black and white, the law is grey, this is the problem. You're position is also not taking into consideration that the VAR may have also believed there was no deliberate handball, in which case everything is pointless.

We simply do not know what was said between the referee and VAR to state if something went wrong with the process.

Screenshot_20230212_161715_Chrome.jpg

In this scenario, if the referee believes the handball was from a natural position as the player throws himself to block the shot, VAR simply cannot tell him he's clear and obviously wrong within the laws of the game.

The controversy with this decision is down to the referee's (wrong, in my opinion) interpretation of natural position, something that will always happen with the laws as they are.

The continuing issue's with VAR is the laws that are purely the interpretation of the referee alongside the interpretation of clear and obvious by VAR as they cannot be defined or heard by us.
 
Johnny Vincents Motorbike said:
Let the ref's, ref.

i saw absolutely nothing in the English premiership (via Twitter/sky/MotD) for any instance were VAR should have been used yesterday.
Click to expand...
How about just a few minutes earlier at the same ground, when VAR correctly overturned the onfield decision to allow a second West Ham goal?

If we ignore those who don't think you should be allowed to give close offsides, almost* every VAR controversy, like the penalty this thread is about, involves it failing to overrule a decision some MotD pundit thinks is wrong (and half the time, that's because they don't know the laws or the protocol). So it involves a situation where VAR has made no difference. Let the refs ref and Chelsea still don't get a penalty, because the ref didn't think it was a penalty. And they go 2-1 down, because the AR was wrong about WHU's second being onside as well.

* - there was, supposedly, the offside at Selhurst yesterday but I'm struggling to think of another this season. And not convinced by that one either. Sure the VAR drew the line in the wrong place. But I found it very suspicious MotD didn't the show us another view with the line in the right place. Call me a cynic, but would your money be on the reason for that being because in five hours they didn't get round to prepping one, or because they did and it didn't show what they wanted it to show?
 
Muttley said:
VAR is causing more problems than pre-existed. They are having to change the rules to accommodate VAR. You are getting different games because of VAR.

Get rid.
Click to expand...

All the issues from this weekend would have occurred without VAR.

The referee wrongly didn't award a penalty, the linesman didn't flag for offside.

VAR just didn't overrule them, as it should have.

At least with the offside, you can claim the linesman may have flagged if he didn't have VAR, but the penalty was a mistake from both on-field and off-field officials.

The issue is people not using it properly, not the technology.
 
Muttley said:
VAR is causing more problems than pre-existed. They are having to change the rules to accommodate VAR. You are getting different games because of VAR.

Get rid.
Click to expand...

Rules are always being changed or clarified, VAR's introduction hasn't changed that. The problem is human error and the application of those laws.

Something that has always happened.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top