we have had enough of experts

I think ST has initially misread Alvez and badly. At least I’ll give ST the benefit of the doubt. His second post tries to cover that misstep.

Having said that, it seems clear to me (from the other side of the world) that the lockdown hasn’t saved thousands of lives, but rather tens of thousands of lives (even though it was late, poorly executed and not universally well observed).
 
What his 3rd post... he does it again

It’s a tactic he uses a lot. Takes a comment and twists it to make it sound like something else if it’s opposite to his arguments.

If I did that and basically libelled someone likr he has done a number of posters would come down on me like a ton of bricks. Sad that some see politics above fellow boro fans.
 
Alvez_48 said:
My response was to CtC to be honest.
I know the government don't listen to a cross section of 'experts' they locked down and have to follow that thinking through lest they be known as the party that committed the most devastating economic decision in British history (2 in a row if you count brexit 😉)..
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Fair enough, if you believe that.

Alvez_48 said:
Imagine losing 20% of GDP and quite likely saving none to a tiny handful of lives (unless you believe captain 'expert' Neil Ferguson).
Much better to double down and not only cost us the above two things AND run a hugely expensive furlough scheme till October, further creating division in an already divided population which will create even more austerity down the line as well as the Draconian bills pushed through parliament..

Those experts on both sides of the aisle eh, quite the bunch.
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The bold part is what ST is referring to, I assume. Alvez you are saying, I think, that most of the folks who have died, would have died anyway, regardless of the strategy the government adopted, and in the strategy we have ruined our economy? Please do correct me if I am wrong. But, therein lies the problem, I have no clue what you meant, if it isnt, 60,000 dead?

Again, genuinley, I don't know, but I read it much the same as ST.

And once again, not your doing Alvez, we have the boards tory shill jumping on a statement and making a straw man. Cooper, bit by bit I am starting to think you are more and more worthless. You don't address the point raised in the OP, heaven forbid you might have an opinion on that! No, you wait until you think you can pick a phrase and attack that.
 
No I am taking a stand for a poster who has been misquoted.... the fact you are defending ST when it’s perfectly clear he is out to wind up Alvez says more about you than me. I said about boro fans above politics and your post goes straight into political standing!....I believe in boro fans above anything else.... I would never let anyone political belief stand in the way of that. Unfortunately you do. I don’t insult, abuse, misquote anyone due to that...., you and others though deem that acceptable due to political beliefs which I find sad
 
You’re just saying that because of your political beliefs.
No, YOU’RE just saying that because of YOUR political beliefs.
.... and on and on.

60,000 people have died.
Would fewer people have died if there’d been a NZ/Australia style lockdown immediately? Absolutely. Tens of thousands.
Would more people have died if there’d been no lockdown at all? Absolutely. Possibly tens of thousands.

The economy has been trashed by 20%.
Would the economy have dropped less if there’d been no lockdown? Absolutely.
Would the economy have done worse with an Australia/NZ style lockdown immediately? Absolutely in the short term, but may well have been less affected in the long term.

Can we all agree on that? Sadly, I don’t think so, but I don’t think that’s a political choice, it’s just how you see the world.
 
I was writing a long reply and its late and I've had wine so I ill keep it short. I liked Devi Sridhar's recent tweet.....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1270258821013942272

She has had a clear viewpoint throughout the pandemic but I like her clear 1-5 points in the tweet, setting out why scientists disagree over a 2nd wave (even though some of those views are at odds with her own). Well worth a read.

I particularly liked "No evidence yet, just theory" comment in tweets 2 and 3.

It would be great if a milder form of the virus was circulating now and if most of the population had already been infected. The evidence just isn't there though. I want the likes of Karol Sikora (I agree with some of what he says btw) to be right but the evidence to back up the possibility of "cross reactivity" is lacking (as Shane Crotty pointed out in his paper. Not that it isn't an interesting paper, just that it might not be applicable to the population at large).

I see Carl Heneghan (Prof. at Centre of Evidence based Medicine, Oxford) tweeting things such as this......

https://twitter.com/carlheneghan/status/1267180701515948032

Fantastic if true, but again, no evidence.... which, for me, isn't great from a prof. at a centre for evidence based medicine. He also retweeted about the dis-credited hydroxychloroquine study in Lancet. A study which was called-out very very early as being pretty much totally fraudulent (completely falsified data) and which has influenced WHO policy. That is the same WHO which has sadly been all over the shop during this (don't wear masks - oh s**t, do wear masks...…… no asymptomatic spread - oh s**t, sorry we didn't mean that).

I could continue about some of Michael Levitt's YouTube videos and his interview with Unherd. I'll save that for another post.

Question everything (and accept if they make sense) especially comments and statements from professors and Nobel prize winners, they're not always right.
 
I'm going to preface this post...…..I do agree with (as I have with Alvez on here) to an extent, about the impact of "restrictions", "lockdown", whatever you want to call it on societies around the world.... but....

I've watched more of Levitt's interview...… There is so much to comment on, but I have to include this classic (I will add the interview was from early May)…..

"Countries seem to be racing to have as many Covid deaths as they could" (see from 22:00)

Woah! Really?!

Again, I'll add the interview was from Early may, but seriously? Countries such as China which doesn't really share data (~4000 dead right? while locking down, and still doing so, large cities), Russia (lots and lots of cases, few deaths, OK), and Brazil (now so bad that they just won't provide the data at all!).

I find it staggering that a Nobel prize winning scientist can make clear statements (without any evidence), not opinions, as he does in the interview........


12:30: "For example, they found, as I understand, children, even if they're infected, never infected adults."

You're a Nobel prize winning scientist..... who are "they"?

There is so much more to comb over but I just don't understand how a scientist who can advocate the wearing of face masks (Yes! We agree on something), can then also dismiss the impact of "social distancing" (unless I've misread it). It is possibly the weirdest interview I've watched so far.

Question everything (and accept if they make sense) especially comments and statements from professors and Nobel prize winners, they're not always right.
 
Laughing said:
Fair enough, if you believe that.


The bold part is what ST is referring to, I assume. Alvez you are saying, I think, that most of the folks who have died, would have died anyway, regardless of the strategy the government adopted, and in the strategy we have ruined our economy? Please do correct me if I am wrong. But, therein lies the problem, I have no clue what you meant, if it isnt, 60,000 dead?

Again, genuinley, I don't know, but I read it much the same as ST.

And once again, not your doing Alvez, we have the boards tory shill jumping on a statement and making a straw man. Cooper, bit by bit I am starting to think you are more and more worthless. You don't address the point raised in the OP, heaven forbid you might have an opinion on that! No, you wait until you think you can pick a phrase and attack that.
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Let me simplify it..

I said and meant that there is no evidence that the lockdown has saved those lives that is all. Nothing to do with 60,000 people who have died and not caring about them.
I've also now got further research on excess deaths from our previous discussions if you'd like to know more please contact me.
 
Zebra stands for Zero Evidence but Really Adamant. Zebras are people who see things in black and white. They are sure of their own opinions and they disdain information or science which undermines their beliefs. The king of the Zebras is Donald Trump.

Tom Nichols is the author of the 2017 book, The Death of Expertise. In it he writes that ignorance is now seen as a virtue. ‘To reject the advice of experts is to assert autonomy, a way for people to demonstrate independence from nefarious elites and to insulate their fragile egos from ever being told that they are wrong.’

Lots of zebras on here.
 
I personally know a “professor emeritus”, but they make me really question the value of anything a professor emeritus says. The one I know, maybe they used to be an expert in something (30 years ago), but I reckon their title is just a kindness that allows them to use the University library freely.
 
otto62 said:
I personally know a “professor emeritus”, but they make me really question the value of anything a professor emeritus says. The one I know, maybe they used to be an expert in something (30 years ago), but I reckon their title is just a kindness that allows them to use the University library freely.
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It's a title conferred (usually) on retired academics. But it's more than just a library pass - Emeriti are usually involved in the running of the university or department or both, because of the experience they have accumulated. They are very bright people though.
 
otto62 said:
I think ST has initially misread Alvez and badly. At least I’ll give ST the benefit of the doubt. His second post tries to cover that misstep.

Having said that, it seems clear to me (from the other side of the world) that the lockdown hasn’t saved thousands of lives, but rather tens of thousands of lives (even though it was late, poorly executed and not universally well observed).
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I did indeed. Hence why I corrected myself. No need for Alvez to react so badly to it. I guess that's just his way
 
Alvez_48 said:
Let me simplify it..

I said and meant that there is no evidence that the lockdown has saved those lives that is all. Nothing to do with 60,000 people who have died and not caring about them.
I've also now got further research on excess deaths from our previous discussions if you'd like to know more please contact me.
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Got it Alvez, whilst not really wanting to get into a slagging match, I woudl think ST also misread your post.

If you have some data, over and above the ONS report last month on excess deaths I would love to see it. I am never beyond learning something and changing my mind if evidence supports that. It is a pretty fluid situation and I would be surprised if scientists hadn't also adapted and changed opinions as we learn more about both the virus and the effect of long term isolation on the population.
 
Laughing said:
Got it Alvez, whilst not really wanting to get into a slagging match, I woudl think ST also misread your post.

If you have some data, over and above the ONS report last month on excess deaths I would love to see it. I am never beyond learning something and changing my mind if evidence supports that. It is a pretty fluid situation and I would be surprised if scientists hadn't also adapted and changed opinions as we learn more about both the virus and the effect of long term isolation on the population.
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I did and admitted it. Like you I'd love to see the data that differs from the ONS data
 
Soutra said:
Zebra stands for Zero Evidence but Really Adamant. Zebras are people who see things in black and white. They are sure of their own opinions and they disdain information or science which undermines their beliefs. The king of the Zebras is Donald Trump.

Tom Nichols is the author of the 2017 book, The Death of Expertise. In it he writes that ignorance is now seen as a virtue. ‘To reject the advice of experts is to assert autonomy, a way for people to demonstrate independence from nefarious elites and to insulate their fragile egos from ever being told that they are wrong.’

Lots of zebras on here.
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17.4 million nationally
 
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