Triple lock

Corcaigh_the_Cat

Well-known member
Lets say you are 20- 30 years old and reading that .......... older people than them have created a debt mountain thru numerous governments and including this pandemic. We havent created wealth we have created debt that must be paid off sometime and by their generation. Then the kicker - pandemic comes in and as posters note thru a weird anamoly it creates a large increase in pension payments to older people which again must be paid for sometime by younger people. Some of the most wealthy people in this country are older people, final salary pensions, very low cost housing, cheap university etc.

It does annoy be when people just say they deserve it - I find it selfish. This triple lock this year should at least be means tested, dont think its vaguely fair to have younger people struggling to fund rich pensioners (and there are millions who live perfectly well funded lives)

This board is great in supporting social issues and the underpriveleged but an issue passing on debt mountains to younger people is not of great importance to many ... and by the way we didnt pay/ fund this, in the 30 years I have worked I have absolutely not always been funding a triple lock pension that has the covid spike in it.
I think you need to look into the 'debt mountain' in a bit more detail. A third of our debt is one government department borrowing from another.

I'm in my 60s, how much debt do you think was passed on to my generation to pay for WW2?

We're not a poor nation yet so many are brainwashed by those not wanting to share their immense wealth with a society which has created it for them in the first place.

It's said that the top earners pay 30% of the nation's tax. If they're taking 90% of its wealth then why is it so low?

As for 20 to 30 year olds, they're also going to be helped by a more civilised payout for those who have worked their lives to keep society ticking. They too will get old and claim a state pension, unless we move away from being the civilised country we fought so hard for in WW2 and voted for after the war had ended. The country was rebuilt despite the debt from the war. There was a greedy elite arguing against it back then too.

Have a higher tax threshold to help the younger and less well off. Increase taxation for the wealthiest and let's have a good hard look at inheritance, bring in a threshold for that too then increase taxation on it.
 
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Public finances don't work like household finances. A sovereign currency-issuing government borrowing in its own currency doesn't have to 'repay' the debt in any meaningful sense. It can simply exchange one form of government debt, e.g. bonds, for another, e.g. currency. See Stephanie Kelton - Debunking the Deficit Myth
Jack - very few well known economists believe in that theory.

Few people on the fringes, its believed that creates huge inflation (which screws economy) and that one shot at financial survival is to to jack up tax rates massively to try to calm hyper inflation. Its a cop out theory for people who like to pretend debt doesnt matter if have a central bank,
 

Keelo

Well-known member
A lot of people are under the ( false) impression all pensioners are mortgage free homeowners, private pensions coming out of every orifice and dripping with money .....how wrong you are...I'm into my 70's now and can't remember so many people deprived and so much inequality between the have's and have nots, food and fuel poverty..the list goes on which includes quiet a few pensioners....you don't see MP's refusing inflation busting rises do you? no!. so why should pensioners..
 

Same_as_before

Well-known member
I think you need to look into the 'debt mountain' in a bit more detail. A third of our debt is one government department borrowing from another.

I'm in my 60s, how much debt do you think was passed on to my generation to pay for WW2?

We're not a poor nation yet so many are brainwashed by those not wanting to share their immense wealth with a society which has created it for them in the first place.

It's said that the top earners pay 30% of the nation's tax. If they're taking 90% of its wealth then why is it so low?

As for 20 to 30 year olds, they're also going to be helped by a more civilised payout for those who have worked their lives to keep society ticking. They too will get old and claim a state pension, unless we move away from being the civilised country we fought so hard for in WW2 and voted for after the war had ended. The country was rebuilt despite the debt from the war. There was a greedy elite arguing against it back then too.

Have a higher tax threshold to help the younger and less well off. Increase taxation for the wealthiest and let's have a good hard look at inheritance, bring in a threshold for that too then increase taxation on it.
That's twice in a day we agree completely. Must be my dotage.
 
A lot of people are under the ( false) impression all pensioners are mortgage free homeowners, private pensions coming out of every orifice and dripping with money .....how wrong you are...I'm into my 70's now and can't remember so many people deprived and so much inequality between the have's and have nots, food and fuel poverty..the list goes on which includes quiet a few pensioners....you don't see MP's refusing inflation busting rises do you? no!. so why should pensioners..
Dont think anyone thinks all pensioners are rich, but many are rich (compared to other parts of soceity) and in my opinion should not get even more at the expense of the less fortunate
 

Same_as_before

Well-known member
Dont think anyone thinks all pensioners are rich, but many are rich (compared to other parts of soceity) and in my opinion should not get even more at the expense of the less fortunate
What's rich? £30k a year? Which is £25k ish after tax.

Or £100k a year. That I assume is less than 1% of the population
 

BaronSmoggie

Well-known member
I know you qualified it Guapo, but we are so far below where we should be on the state pension that an uplift this year is no bad thing.
When there are articles stating that by August, pensioners haver already ran out of money because the cost of living is greater than they get annually, then no, it shouldn't be cut at all.

There are a million different ways the government could claw back this spending, but they choose to kick pensioners for it so to appease younger voters.

Fed up to the back teeth of it.
 
Means tested? The Tripp.e lock is to protect the percentage increase, if you means tested it this year you would have two different pension rates going forward.

Also you see to assume anyone of pension age now didnt themselves inherit any kind of national debt and lived in some rose coloured past, when in fact they inherited the war debt and lived through the most expensive period of borrowing ever.

And for the record I do see a very good argument for breaking the tripped
lock for this year only.
Happy to agree on the last bit :)

Did the baby boomer generation have it tough... not so sure
 
What's rich? £30k a year? Which is £25k ish after tax.

Or £100k a year. That I assume is less than 1% of the population
Many pensioners are very poor, yes absolutely and soceity should protect them better but many many are very affluent - do I think its right that millionaires who winter in Spain or South Africa should get this ... no I dont
 

Same_as_before

Well-known member
Many pensioners are very poor, yes absolutely and soceity should protect them better but many many are very affluent - do I think its right that millionaires who winter in Spain or South Africa should get this ... no I dont
How many millionaires? You are talking minuscule amounts in the scheme of things.
 

JackG

Well-known member
Jack - very few well known economists believe in that theory.

Few people on the fringes, its believed that creates huge inflation (which screws economy) and that one shot at financial survival is to to jack up tax rates massively to try to calm hyper inflation. Its a cop out theory for people who like to pretend debt doesnt matter if have a central bank,
Nobody is arguing that deficits are without consequences, but the need to repay is not one of them for a sovereign currency issuer. If deficits result in excessive spending and increased inflation risk then higher taxes may be needed, but these taxes are to drain excess liquidity from the economy, not to fund the spending.
 

Trug

Well-known member
Means testing was mentioned earlier-
The reason means testing was not implemented is that it is cheaper just to give all pensioners the triple lock/ fuel allowance than it is to process each and every individual claim.
Another reason is that it was found that many pensioners did not claim what was rightly theirs so they were given it automatically.
Many pensioners, and indeed, many younger people, cannot use a computer so are unlikely to claim if it was means tested. There is also a lot of distrust about means testing. How long before you get the bigots on here saying they should have to sell their large TV, not go to the pub to socialise, give up their home/car etc as they do with unemployed people.
The fact of the matter is this- some people cannot stand someone else getting more than them and will always offer an argument as to why people should remain in poverty.
 
How many millionaires? You are talking minuscule amounts in the scheme of things.
Simple stat - when you look at top 20% of wealthy people by income. That level is also the level of top 20% of pensioners I believe or thereabouts. Now is 20% rich, well its obviously subjective but there are a lot of older people who are quite well off. Do they need the covid spike for their state pension, no I dont think its fair that is funded by the less fortunate

Equally when look at worst off 20% in soceity pensioners arent disproportionally in that group (in fact think its quite a but less than 20% of pensioners). I dont know but would imagine the group in soceity that are most likely to be worst off - would be 20 - 30 yo, lots of debt, furloughed, minimal chance of buying a house etc etc
 

Corcaigh_the_Cat

Well-known member
Happy to agree on the last bit :)

Did the baby boomer generation have it tough... not so sure
Our parents didn't have to save for mortgages so there was a little more in the pocket.

I'm not sure that the younger generation today are any worse off than us baby boomers were. They just like to bleat about it as instructed.
 
Nobody is arguing that deficits are without consequences, but the need to repay is not one of them for a sovereign currency issuer. If deficits result in excessive spending and increased inflation risk then higher taxes may be needed, but these taxes are to drain excess liquidity from the economy, not to fund the spending.
Jack there are so many things that go wrong when high inflation. There is so much complexity in managing the economy, many different types of lags that exist between enacting a policy and when it happens. Timing of huge tax increases to manage hyper inflation would be next to impossible. Pumping trillions of £££ from the Bank of England would probably lead to meltdown.
 

Nero

Well-known member
Why is nobody talking about the Conservatives Austerity programme making a poor situation into a shockingly bad one? Councils in the North East have been forced into Social Care Provision cuts due to massive funding cuts from Central Government!

This situation has been a policy of the Tories since 2010.
 

Corcaigh_the_Cat

Well-known member
Simple stat - when you look at top 20% of wealthy people by income. That level is also the level of top 20% of pensioners I believe or thereabouts. Now is 20% rich, well its obviously subjective but there are a lot of older people who are quite well off. Do they need the covid spike for their state pension, no I dont think its fair that is funded by the less fortunate

Equally when look at worst off 20% in soceity pensioners arent disproportionally in that group (in fact think its quite a but less than 20% of pensioners). I dont know but would imagine the group in soceity that are most likely to be worst off - would be 20 - 30 yo, lots of debt, furloughed, minimal chance of buying a house etc etc
There shouldn't be any pensioners in that bottom group, they've done their bit and deserve some comfort in retirement.

Perhaps those over pension age should pay a higher rate of tax above a reasonable threshold. If they've done so well out of society then they can pay a bit more back to say thank you?
 

Corcaigh_the_Cat

Well-known member
Why is nobody talking about the Conservatives Austerity programme making a poor situation into a shockingly bad one? Councils in the North East have been forced into Social Care Provision cuts due to massive funding cuts from Central Government!

This situation has been a policy of the Tories since 2010.
Perhaps because the Weapons of Mass Deception don't want to either inform or remind the electorate of what's really going on in society?
 
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