Tomahawk - to avoid after lockdown

The tax payer will continue to support business to the tune of £80 billion a year (normal) plus a lot more to get them out of trouble.

If a business owner is really in trouble, there's a £20 UC uplift to help him through this.
Do you think that 80 billion is enough? From what I see every day it won't be anywhere near enough, hence why loads have already gone bust.

I'm not saying they should give more mind, as there is only so much that can be given before the pot is emptied further. The point is we're in a pandemic, there's an economic cost, and it will hit most people and it will hit those at the bottom the most, just like it always does.
 
I didn't say I don't agree, and I didn't say I do agree either.

I'm saying this might be the only way, or might be the only low-risk way (which is essential to the companies future), the alternative might be just folding up and making 500 people redundant (which most will get zero or next to zero payout).
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If you had read what I had written you may have understood this, on or two have.

I've spent time on it as the level of understanding of business ownership, possibilities and funding available in general on here seems to be quite poor. From what I've seen every comment against has been from someone who has never run a company of a similar size, or anywhere near that size. Like I said before, I would love for someone to prove me wrong here, and explain how easy they have had it.
As is the assumption that all directors are bad, don't care about staff or whatever, it's just not true, not from my experience anyway, even those that have decent cars (probably on lease).

There's been quite a few points on here from people against the loan, stating that if the loan had interest it would be fine. This is a completely bonkers stance, as the difference between the two is likely less than 1% of the earnings to the end of the year. Again this shows a poor level of understanding of reality. It's like going wild, and causing an uproar about a £9,900 offer for a car, but then saying the £10,000 offer is totally fine.
It is not a completely bonkers stance to incentivise staff to help out the business. And stating it's the only way to save your job is not an incentive, it is a threat. That you fail to see the difference undermines anything else you say.

For the record, I've been in business for 21 years and there have been some good days and bad days in that time. Back in 2009 we had to ask our staff to reduce their working hours and pay to 80% to keep the business afloat (there was no furlough scheme to help us out then). That was the most difficult thing I've ever had to do, but at least we still paid people fully for the work they did. And we managed to survive and were eventually able to return people to 100% of their hours and pay (although a couple enjoyed the 4 day week and requested to stay on that basis). So I personally am no stranger to the realities of trying to survive during an economic meltdown.

You might think there's no difference between what we did and what Tomahawk have done, but there is one big difference IMO. The money that their staff are being asked to loan to the company is furlough money. It's morally no different to me than the likes of Spurs and Liverpool paying individual footballers £200,000 a week, then claiming money back off the government through the furlough of low paid staff. More than that however, the legality of this arrangement is questionable as it seems to me to breach the rules of the furlough scheme. If that is proven, I hope that HMRC takes action against the directors for fraud so it hits their personal wealth, and not the business as that would cost jobs.

I'm going to take my own advice and stop posting on this subject until there are any further notable developments. I really do not wish Tomahawk ill and I accept that their intentions may have been honourable, so I will wait for the powers that be to deliver judgement. But if nothing else, they have badly misjudged how their staff and customers would view this arrangement.
 
You don’t know it’s there only way, and people have pointed out countless evidence around the lavish lifestyle and other businesses this directors has

as you have said yourself around things that are likely, it is likely he has other ways of generating said money than bending his staff over a barrel.
Right, the company is limited, it seemingly can't sustain itself, and I've assumed they have tried to get finance that wouldn't cripple them or break them in the near future, or it's been exhausted. It's not a wild assumption, it seems extremely commonplace in my industry (which is not as badly affected).

The director's personal wealth is irrelevant, it could have been accrued over 30 years, outside of this business, everything he has may be financed up to the hilt. He's also seemingly not even the major shareholder!!! If a company cant get a loan from a bank or the government, do you really think it's going to make sense for a minor shareholder to lend that money? Why would he take the risk, he doesn't have to, the company is limited for a reason, its how business functions and this is how the economy grows. He may just see it as less risk to fold it, and work on other companies.
 
Clearly the owner of this business needs to give his head a shake. Asking his employees to finance his business in this current mess in the way he has is quite frankly wrong if it's true. Threatening with dismissal maybe the GMB's words , not his I don't know.
Now asking them to buy a 'steak' in the company might have been a proper and better way to do it, but I think he knows what the answer to that might be in these difficult times. Your steaks are overpriced mate!
It appears these actions are of a desperate man.
 
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It is not a completely bonkers stance to incentivise staff to help out the business. And stating it's the only way to save your job is not an incentive, it is a threat. That you fail to see the difference undermines anything else you say.

For the record, I've been in business for 21 years and there have been some good days and bad days in that time. Back in 2009 we had to ask our staff to reduce their working hours and pay to 80% to keep the business afloat (there was no furlough scheme to help us out then). That was the most difficult thing I've ever had to do, but at least we still paid people fully for the work they did. And we managed to survive and were eventually able to return people to 100% of their hours and pay (although a couple enjoyed the 4 day week and requested to stay on that basis). So I personally am no stranger to the realities of trying to survive during an economic meltdown.

You might think there's no difference between what we did and what Tomahawk have done, but there is one big difference IMO. The money that their staff are being asked to loan to the company is furlough money. It's morally no different to me than the likes of Spurs and Liverpool paying individual footballers £200,000 a week, then claiming money back off the government through the furlough of low paid staff. More than that however, the legality of this arrangement is questionable as it seems to me to breach the rules of the furlough scheme. If that is proven, I hope that HMRC takes action against the directors for fraud so it hits their personal wealth, and not the business as that would cost jobs.

I'm going to take my own advice and stop posting on this subject until there are any further notable developments. I really do not wish Tomahawk ill and I accept that their intentions may have been honourable, so I will wait for the powers that be to deliver judgement. But if nothing else, they have badly misjudged how their staff and customers would view this arrangement.
It's a fake incentive, which seemingly works on most people, even 10% on a £300 loan for 3 month is about £5 interest, in total. This is not the difference between this being a good or bad idea.

The incentive is to invest 10% in your job or there may be no job, it's brutal and $hit, but it could just be the facts.

I get that it's furlugh money, but that money is still ultimately coming from taxpayers and businesses. But the second it leaves the companies bank (not the government's bank weeks later) then it is no longer furlough, it's up to the staff to do with that as they wish. If they think putting 10% aside will help keep their chance of employment alive then that's up to them, I would definitely take it. I wouldn't want to do it, but I would understand the difficulty of the situation.

I think it will get stopped, but we'll see.

Another thing on the furlough, the company has to pay the furlough money and claim it back, it does not come directly from the government, 500 staff on 1k after furlough is 500k worth of a cashflow problem. There's no furlough for those on dividends (probably directors), despite paying >30% tax on a chunk, and corp tax to get it no doubt.

Good on you for keeping your business going, you seem like one of the good guys just trying to do his best for his company and staff.
Same as myself, I paid all my guys 100% during the first wave, and I took a 75% pay cut, as couldn't get any furlough, had to be done, times were hard (but not even on the same level as leisure). 2008/9 hit us in 2010, we had to lay of 60% of our staff, and sell half our gear at much less than market value, and work for half rates, it was rough.

They've definitely handled it badly, no doubt about that, and massively misunderstood how the public would see this.
 
I love a steak, so until you can go out and dine at your favourite restaurant do yourself a favour and nip into Aldi and pick up one of their Aberdeen Angus Steaks. £3.25. Tenderise it and if it's cooked right they just melt into your mouth. Enjoy.
I've always considered steak as a treat, and still do.
 
Right, the company is limited, it seemingly can't sustain itself, and I've assumed they have tried to get finance that wouldn't cripple them or break them in the near future, or it's been exhausted. It's not a wild assumption, it seems extremely commonplace in my industry (which is not as badly affected).

The director's personal wealth is irrelevant, it could have been accrued over 30 years, outside of this business, everything he has may be financed up to the hilt. He's also seemingly not even the major shareholder!!! If a company cant get a loan from a bank or the government, do you really think it's going to make sense for a minor shareholder to lend that money? Why would he take the risk, he doesn't have to, the company is limited for a reason, its how business functions and this is how the economy grows. He may just see it as less risk to fold it, and work on other companies.
I like how you keep saying the directors personal wealth is irrelevant and accumulated over however long, but it’s the employees personal “wealth” the directors are asking for! It’s likely his employees have sod all accumulated in terms of cash and other assets. Why should the employees be pushed into giving their hard earned money over the directors? He’s more than capable of putting his own money where his mouth is. Tough decisions shouldn’t be down to the poor people to make.
 
Right, the company is limited, it seemingly can't sustain itself, and I've assumed they have tried to get finance that wouldn't cripple them or break them in the near future, or it's been exhausted. It's not a wild assumption, it seems extremely commonplace in my industry (which is not as badly affected).

The director's personal wealth is irrelevant, it could have been accrued over 30 years, outside of this business, everything he has may be financed up to the hilt. He's also seemingly not even the major shareholder!!! If a company cant get a loan from a bank or the government, do you really think it's going to make sense for a minor shareholder to lend that money? Why would he take the risk, he doesn't have to, the company is limited for a reason, its how business functions and this is how the economy grows. He may just see it as less risk to fold it, and work on other companies.
Well he could supply the business a directors loan, and he can take that back in the future tax free.

or he could look after his own financial well-being and ask his staff to bail him company, and if it ain’t enough his employees will lose the 10% they’ve paid, and let them take the risk. Why should the staff take the risk, on the off chance they keep their job
 
I like how you keep saying the directors personal wealth is irrelevant and accumulated over however long, but it’s the employees personal “wealth” the directors are asking for! It’s likely his employees have sod all accumulated in terms of cash and other assets. Why should the employees be pushed into giving their hard earned money over the directors? He’s more than capable of putting his own money where his mouth is. Tough decisions shouldn’t be down to the poor people to make.
The director's personal wealth is irrelevant as it's not under the umbrella of the company, it's a completely separate entity. Maybe the directors are taking a 10% loan from wages too (albeit not from furlough as there is no furlough for dividends, despite paying higher tax). Maybe they have already invested personal cash? Maybe they have already lost millions in that business and other businesses?

Anyone investing anything would have to assess if the risk is worth the reward if the risk is too high then they just pull the plug, or do something else. It's not the director's responsibility that the workers have more to lose here, that's the fault of the system, the pandemic, the economy etc.

You seemingly want one guy to take all the risk and responsibility of a company employing 500, that's been broken by a pandemic, it's just not going to work.

Is anyone asking the workers to remortgage their house or sell their car, to keep someone else in a job? No, they're not, they're being asked to put aside 10%, and keep the other 70% for doing nothing. Then when they come back to work they will be on 110% until it's paid back.

Like I've said 1000 times now, if the company goes broke (like hundreds have) then the staff get zero. 70% (temporarily) is $hit, but zero is worse.

There's two million on the dole, the priority should be not adding to this number, those are the ones who are most worse off.
 
No. Corporation tax two thirds of this £93 billion. They get more in tax handouts than they pay.
Eh?
Corporation tax is paid by businesses.
PAYE is paid by staff because they work for businesses

Take the businesses away and then it all goes south, rapidly.

The major tax dodging comes from massive companies, not small business.
 
Eh?
Corporation tax is paid by businesses.
PAYE is paid by staff because they work for businesses

Take the businesses away and then it all goes south, rapidly.

The major tax dodging comes from massive companies, not small business.
Ahh I hadn't realised that businesses are charitable enterprises only there to provide employment for people.

We have become a low wage economy from the 80s onwards, whilst the richest in society have never been richer. The Blair government tried to stem the tide with minimum wage (now an aspiration to drive wages down to) and tax and family credits (tax payers subsidising businesses). And Corporation tax doesn't even equal The £3500 paid by every household in the UK to subsidise business.
 
Well he could supply the business a directors loan, and he can take that back in the future tax free.

or he could look after his own financial well-being and ask his staff to bail him company, and if it ain’t enough his employees will lose the 10% they’ve paid, and let them take the risk. Why should the staff take the risk, on the off chance they keep their job
Why would he risk that? How do you know he has that sort of cash? How much of that cash has come from this business?
I wouldn't be surprised if he's probably lost a boatload of money on it, over 4 years now, seeing as it's recent and had a nightmare year.
He might just see less risk in folding, and invest in his other businesses (which he has a larger stake in) or just retire?

It's not a sole directors job or responsibility to take on this risk to save 500 staff because there's a pandemic, a line has to be drawn somewhere, some drew that line 6 months ago and there wasn't a peep about it.
 
Andy W you put forward some insightful and well argued points to try to understand the issue from the perspective of the business.

Despite the comments about Ferraris we do not know what the owner has done regarding financing the business so comments about his wealth and ability to keep the company afloat is conjecture.

There was a guy on the radio who owned a small pub bistro who had overheads of £900 p month so this company will have very heavy fixed costs.

What nobody seems to have picked up on is that the 'loan' is to cover the employees NI and pension. So as well as helping the company they are also ensuring the continuity of their stamp and pension contributions. An alternative is redundancy.

Is it morally correct? I don't know because all the facts are not available but the underlying theme that it's an example of an employer exploiting the workers
just reveals the inherent bias on the forum.
 
Ahh I hadn't realised that businesses are charitable enterprises only there to provide employment for people.

We have become a low wage economy from the 80s onwards, whilst the richest in society have never been richer. The Blair government tried to stem the tide with minimum wage (now an aspiration to drive wages down to) and tax and family credits (tax payers subsidising businesses). And Corporation tax doesn't even equal The £3500 paid by every household in the UK to subsidise business.
Didn't say they were charitable, even the charities don't do this. Every business is trying to make money or designed to ensure the guy who took the biggest risk gets a payoff for that risk (like how contractors do). Businesses have to employ people and people have to pay tax, and money gets taxed each time it changes hands, which is where all this funding is coming from. It's going back to the companies who helped create it, so they can employ more and start the cycle again.

The economy and structure is broken, but I don't think this is one of those ways. This to me just looks like a bad problem, caused by a pandemic.

Like I keep saying, it's $hit, but had the business been badly run it would have already gone under (like lots have), and the staff wouldn't have the 80% to loan back 10%, and wouldn't;t have a good chance of getting 110% in the next few months.
 
No, the gain is keeping employment, not risking losing it to the same degree.

If you look at it like the job they have is not viable, then they're gaining having a job in 6 months time, and getting all of their money back, which seems like by far the most likely scenario.

If you think 5% interest is the difference between this being a good idea and a bad idea, then you're completely missing the point. It's practically exactly the same thing.

5% interest for a year, on a £500 loan is £25, this is about 0.25% of £10,000 worth of earnings, which most of them will get before the end of the year.

That's it 0.25% between this being "good" from a more reputable firm or "bad" from a small business? It's the same thing, the word "interest" is just used to stop people complaining, and it seems to be working on you lot.
The irony here is that every time you post Andy_W the headline goes to the top of the board -

Tomahawk - to avoid after lockdown​

 
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