The ups and downs of this squad.

[Big_Nothing]

This was initially a reply to a thread about Greenwood but the answer quickly turned into probably the most I've had a deeper think about our squad in recent weeks so I've posted it as it's own thing to see what others think.

---------------------

We had a player last season who was a 10 and a 9 in one, two genuine talents on loan and a fit MgGree which makes us a little judgmental of new players in these areas of the pitch.

This season we have a lad who was playing the equivalent of L2 last season in Silvera, Rogers who was average in a poor team at Blackpool and Greenwood who hasn't had a consistent position or long spell at a club in some time. The same can be said of the left back position and in central midfield in all honesty.

They're all going to have aspects to their game which led to us signing them and when they shine we feel they're great business, when they don't then they just don't compare to what we have had available last season.

If we'd spent 30m on Archer, Ramsey and Giles in the summer we would have had expectations of being in and around that top two, if they'd have shown the levels of consistency that Rogers, Lath and Engel are showing we'd be giving them pelters in those performances and then singing their praises the next time they turned it on.

The hope is clearly that after a full season at a higher level, with better players, against better players, that enough of these lads improve and/or showcase themselves enough to make for better long-term financial investments for the club.

I think we've been chronically unlucky not to have Smith, Lenihan, O'Brien, McGree and Forss fit as with those lads added to the first team squad we might have seen the other lads develop a little more consistency.

-------------Dieng --------------
Smith -- Rav -- Lenihan -- Engel
-----O'Brien --- Hackney -------
Jones --- Greenwood ---- Mcgree
------------Latte Lath-------------

Now you could prefer Bangura in at full back for pure pace, Fry for experience or McNair for composure at centre half, Dijk at fullback for those little triangles we create down the right.

You could prefer Howson for leadership in for O'Brien (drive) or even for Greenwood and push Hackney further forward to allow better fullback cover. Barlaser is struggling to get in there yet stats seem to show his importance in starting moves for us.

You might be a big fan of Crooksy and his knack of getting the best out of Jones and being in the right place at the right time.

Perhaps you think Rogers is better in the hole for turning teams or Forss is better in the first half before Jones scares a tired fullback to death in the last half hour.

Big Josh could be a better bet than Lath if we want to bully some centre halves, Lath could even drop into a deeper role if we're feeling confident.


However, we haven't been afforded these options and the new lads have been under immediate pressure to perform at a level they haven't previously in their careers and maybe never will. Hopefully it has done them some good and we see some start to flourish so that our team in the second half of the season or next has the consistency to do what Ipswich are doing at the moment.

I foresee a midfielder and a centre forward as priorities in January and/or the summer if the deal is right. Don't be surprised to see us look at the prem for two loans if we can't get a permanent solution to improve the squad over the line.

Fullback (both sides) is definitely to be looked at unless we start seeing more consistency and centre half as well dependent on McNair's situation.

Greenwood is signed if Leeds don't go up, otherwise he's back to Leeds and someone else will take a chance at that price with a higher wage.

Buzzing for tomorrow, proper knock out game and I'm bricking it!

UTFB!

 

[newyddion]

I've had a deeper think about our squad in recent weeks..

Nope

We had a player last season who was a 10 and a 9 in one, two genuine talents on loan and a fit MgGree which makes us a little judgmental of new players in these areas of the pitch.

Latte Lath is one goal ahead of Akpom.. Greenwood is one or two goals ahead of Ramsey has been with us for half a season longer and will hopefully continue to contribute more!

This season we have a lad who was playing the equivalent of L2 last season in Silvera, Rogers who was average in a poor team at Blackpool

Silvera replaces Walker and has 5 goal contributions, Rogers replaces Ridley and looks like an earlier version of Tavernier

and Greenwood who hasn't had a consistent position or long spell at a club in some time.

Left wing.. doing really well

The same can be said of the left back position

No it can’t Engel and Bangura are solid full time replacements for.. Giles who did his best work first half of the season. Bs guts has already shown he can replicated the assists snd Engel is much stronger defensively.

and in central midfield in all honesty

Pure guff

They're all going to have aspects to their game which led to us signing them and when they shine we feel they're great business, when they don't then they just don't compare to what we have had available last season.

They all compare very favourably.. recruitment has been ace! Giles, Ramsey & Co have entered mythological status!

If we'd spent 30m on Archer, Ramsey and Giles in the summer we would have had expectations of being in and around that top two

Ramsey injured, Archer would be itching for a move and we saw the best of Giles first half of last season.

if they'd have shown the levels of consistency that Rogers, Lath and Engel are showing we'd be giving them pelters in those performances and then singing their praises the next time they turned it on.

We’d be around the same position and folks would still be moaning!

The hope is clearly that after a full season at a higher level, with better players, against better players, that enough of these lads improve and/or showcase themselves enough to make for better long-term financial investments for the club.

Improving, already equal to last year and will get better.

I think we've been chronically unlucky not to have Smith, Lenihan, O'Brien, McGree and Forss fit as with those lads added to the first team squad we might have seen the other lads develop a little more consistency.

No.. they wouldn’t have played as much most likely. O’Brien replaces Mowett who missed out most of last season btw, Lenihan replaced by Clarke.. revitalised Jones ahead of Forss.. RVDB & Dijksteel been decent at right back. Greenwood doing a good job filling in for McGree

-------------Dieng --------------
Smith -- Rav -- Lenihan -- Engel
-----O'Brien --- Hackney -------
Jones --- Greenwood ---- Mcgree
------------Latte Lath-------------

Now you could prefer Bangura in at full back for pure pace, Fry for experience or McNair for composure at centre half, Dijk at fullback for those little triangles we create down the right.

Dairylea?

You could prefer Howson for leadership in for O'Brien (drive) or even for Greenwood and push Hackney further forward to allow better fullback cover. Barlaser is struggling to get in there yet stats seem to show his importance in starting moves for us.

Howson is mega. Hackney starts over Barlaser when fit.

You might be a big fan of Crooksy and his knack of getting the best out of Jones and being in the right place at the right time.

Crooks is class!

Perhaps you think Rogers is better in the hole for turning teams or Forss is better in the first half before Jones scares a tired fullback to death in the last half hour.

No

Big Josh could be a better bet than Lath if we want to bully some centre halves, Lath could even drop into a deeper role if we're feeling confident.

Lath as a 10 with Josh as a 9 could be an option (if fit) tough on Crooks mind

However, we haven't been afforded these options and the new lads have been under immediate pressure to perform at a level they haven't previously in their careers and maybe never will. Hopefully it has done them some good and we see some start to flourish so that our team in the second half of the season or next has the consistency to do what Ipswich are doing at the moment.

Carrick is consistent and we’ve seen players for in really well and hit the ground running as a result.

I foresee a midfielder and a centre forward as priorities in January and/or the summer if the deal is right. Don't be surprised to see us look at the prem for two loans if we can't get a permanent solution to improve the squad over the line.

Striker defo, central defender.. and hopefully a right back!

Fullback (both sides) is definitely to be looked at unless we start seeing more consistency and centre half as well dependent on McNair's situation.

Nah.. left back is stacked

Greenwood is signed if Leeds don't go up, otherwise he's back to Leeds and someone else will take a chance at that price with a higher wage.

Yup

Buzzing for tomorrow, proper knock out game and I'm bricking it!

Cool Mang

UTFB!

UTB!

 

[sugee jung]

Honestly, I don't think our team will be promoted within 2 years.
Our players still don't have enough experience will be able to compete in the Premier League.
Carrick himself still don't have enough experience. Fixing his game still behind many team managers.
But I think these things there shouldn't be any need to hurry.
I don't want to be like Burnley fan. They were quite depressed because of the success of the previous year. It was quite the complete opposite this year.
To be a good player, you must accumulate experience. Managers, as well as fans, should learn to be patient and wait.
But the game against Port Vale must be won.

 

[Jedi boro]

With dieng now out that is a complete first 11 that has been injured/suspended this season

 

[Jedi boro]

Our players still don't have enough experience will be able to compete in the Premier League.

Yes just look at Brighton Brentford Bournemouth Fulham… it’s a myth you get up then you worry about it then.

There’s never a right or wrong time to be promoted you go up when you can all this So called building for the following season talk is rubbish.

Look at Coventry and how they are doing now.

 

[Bruce]

Once it became clear that we were replacing our prestige loans plus Chuba with relatively low cost prospects the chances of making the play-offs this season became very slim. It is the classic taking 1 step back so that (hopefully) we can take 2 steps forward into the promised land. That said, we were still one of the highest spending teams this summer so Carrick does have access to a squad that looks like it is strong enough for somewhere between 6th-10th. The injury crisis though is ludicrous.

If you break down our main players by current level this season and potential level next season then I reckon you get something like

Premier > Premier: Hackney, O'Brien
Top Championship > Champ/Premier: Dieng, McGree?
Top Championship > stay the same or minor improvement/decline: Fry, Lenihan, Clarke, Forss, McNair
Mid Championship > could improve: Lath, Greenwood, Jones, Coburn, RVDB, Engel
Mid Championship > stay the same or get worse: Howson, Barlaser, Dijksteel, Crooks, Smith
Lower championship > could improve: Rogers, Silvera, Bangura,

Unknown: Gilbert, Nkrumah etc

Basically, given a whole season there's a fair number of our squad who could improve significantly. Without massive investment in January I don't see the squad presently being good enough to make the play-offs due to the stupid number of injuries we've had so the focus has to be on improving what we already have as far as possible.

 

[TheWolfman]

I agree the players brought in are very inexperienced at this level which means you are going to get inconsistent performances from them.

Add to that players who weren't first team players last season who are starting this season are also notorious for being inconsistent ; jones, crooks, dijksteel, fry, barlaser.

Injuries have obviously blighted us and im sure Carrick didn't want to be so reliant on Coburn, Silvera, Rogers, VDV etc.

The people who constantly yearn or yearned for the likes Giles, Archer, Akpom, Steffan & Ramsey shouldn't forget they failed pretty drastically in the last 10 games of last season and play offs.

We will probably struggle for the play offs but the truth is we have some good young players signed and slowly improving. We haven't wasted a load of money on expensive loans.

 

[Jedi boro]

Basically, given a whole season there's a fair number of our squad who could improve significantly.

We said that last year though and the year before.

If we don’t go up we’ll be fine but no one knows what next year could bring.

 

[atypical_boro]

People talk about the ‘superstar loans’ we had last year.

Giles, to a point, he’d had a good season before he came to us.

Archer, decent for Preston but not that prolific.

Ramsey, not done that much at Norwich?

These are all players who developed significantly under Carrick and became ‘superstars loans’ whilst here.

ELL won’t get 28 league goals this season but it would be a bit unfair to judge him by that when for the last 30 years no one got close to that amount.

Greenwood could easily turn out to be as good as Ramsey come May.

Our recruitment in the summer wasn’t that different to the recruitment in January, except we had more permanent signings.

A couple of decent buys next month and I think we’ll be in the play-offs again. We might not go up (again) but at least we probably won’t have to put up with VAR next season.

 

[festa5]

We've got a good base of players now.

We'll probably lose Hackney and McNair. O'brien and Greenwood are loanees of course. But otherwise our starting position could be:

GK: Dieng, Glover, Jones - plus the youths.

RB: Dijksteel, Smith
LB: Bangura, Engel

CB: Fry, Lenihen, RVB, Clarke

CM: Barlaser, Howson?

AM: McGree, Jones, Forss, Rogers, Silvera, Crooks

ST: Coburn, LL.

In terms of numbers it's only really centre mid and centre forward we'd be lacking.

Potentially 3 cm to bring in mind. Would like one to be O'brien if we can make it happen.

The picture may change depending on January business of course.

I would hope in the summer, because the depth in the squad is now there, we can focus more on quality rather than quantity.

 

[Jedi boro]

We are well poised half way in and 6 pts of play offs with a lot of games still to come and with a few returning from injury we hopefully should kick on and go on another run and make grab for those play off spots.

 

[newyddion]

I agree the players brought in are very inexperienced at this level which means you are going to get inconsistent performances from them.

Add to that players who weren't first team players last season who are starting this season are also notorious for being inconsistent ; jones, crooks, dijksteel, fry, barlaser.

Injuries have obviously blighted us and im sure Carrick didn't want to be so reliant on Coburn, Silvera, Rogers, VDV etc.

Coburn replaces Archer who we didn't have until January (last year)
Silvera has played 690 minutes in the league.. equivalent to about 7 games he has 2 goals and 2 assists
Rogers has played 771 minutes.. say 9 games and has 4 goal involvements.. superb in the cup btw

The people who constantly yearn or yearned for the likes Giles, Archer, Akpom, Steffan & Ramsey shouldn't forget they failed pretty drastically in the last 10 games of last season and play offs.

Giles was an assist king.. in the 2nd half of the season he provided 4 assists.. Bangura has 3 right now
Archer didn't come until January.. but 11 goals and 6 assists will be heard to replicate with just one player.. we'll get it with a settled and fit squad

We will probably struggle for the play offs but the truth is we have some good young players signed and slowly improving. We haven't wasted a load of money on expensive loans.

Three top teams in Leicester, Ipswich and Leeds this season instead of one last season we had with Burnley.. 75 points isn't out of the question but I do believe a hotly contested 6th place finish is our most realistic prospect.

 

[Bruce]

We said that last year though and the year before.

I'm not sure we did. Last season when we started we bought a mix of seasoned pros who were expected to be already at or around their peak, prestige loans who we wouldn't keep and some "development" players. Looking at the start of the season and the players we bought in or promoted internally.
Keepers. Steffan et al. no one expected to improve
Defence. We bought Smith, Lenihan and Clarke as seasoned pros, Giles as a loan.
Midfield. Wasn't until Wilder left that Hackney got a chance. Prior to that we loaned Mowatt and got Luongo on a free.
Forwards. Muniz on loan (weird choice), Forss for first team with room to develop (but Wilder sulked), Hoppe as an out and out punt.

In the winter we brought in Barlaser, Archer and Ramsey.

Pretty much the entire focus apart from Hoppe was players who would come in and immediately strengthen the first team with no real eye to developing them for future seasons. Wilder was desperately trying to force out Akpom and Uche so he could free up wages for a "marque" striker but ended up with Muniz.

It was promotion or bust because we used so many loans. Young players who we could have developed either went out on loan or backwards or both. When we failed to get promoted we were stuck with the smouldering remnants of a team.

I do feel like the pendulum swung too far to the other side this summer but we are at least trying to focus on players who could spend multiple seasons with us and improve both individually and together as a team.

 

[newyddion]

I'm not sure we did. Last season when we started we bought a mix of seasoned pros who were expected to be already at or around their peak, prestige loans who we wouldn't keep and some "development" players. Looking at the start of the season and the players we bought in or promoted internally.
Keepers. Steffan et al. no one expected to improve
Defence. We bought Smith, Lenihan and Clarke as seasoned pros, Giles as a loan.
Midfield. Wasn't until Wilder left that Hackney got a chance. Prior to that we loaned Mowatt and got Luongo on a free.
Forwards. Muniz on loan (weird choice), Forss for first team with room to develop (but Wilder sulked), Hoppe as an out and out punt.

In the winter we brought in Barlaser, Archer and Ramsey.

Pretty much the entire focus apart from Hoppe was players who would come in and immediately strengthen the first team with no real eye to developing them for future seasons. Wilder was desperately trying to force out Akpom and Uche so he could free up wages for a "marque" striker but ended up with Muniz.

He ended up with Chuba Akpom.. he wanted Dwight Gayle on £60k a week and also David McGoldrick

It was promotion or bust because we used so many loans. Young players who we could have developed either went out on loan or backwards or both. When we failed to get promoted we were stuck with the smouldering remnants of a team.

We lost momentum at the end.. Howson being injured probably had the biggest effect.. tight margins.. but we'd lost Aaron Ramsey to injury, Ryan GIles was running on 50% and it wouldn't surprise me if the rest of our loan players weren't 100% focused.

I do feel like the pendulum swung too far to the other side this summer but we are at least trying to focus on players who could spend multiple seasons with us and improve both individually and together as a team.

We swung well.. recruitment was spot on.. we missed out on a replacement for Cameron Archer.. but maybe that was a blessing in disguise.. not sure how the alternatives are getting on?

 

[Otto42]

This was initially a reply to a thread about Greenwood but the answer quickly turned into probably the most I've had a deeper think about our squad in recent weeks so I've posted it as it's own thing to see what others think.

---------------------

We had a player last season who was a 10 and a 9 in one, two genuine talents on loan and a fit MgGree which makes us a little judgmental of new players in these areas of the pitch.

This season we have a lad who was playing the equivalent of L2 last season in Silvera, Rogers who was average in a poor team at Blackpool and Greenwood who hasn't had a consistent position or long spell at a club in some time. The same can be said of the left back position and in central midfield in all honesty.

They're all going to have aspects to their game which led to us signing them and when they shine we feel they're great business, when they don't then they just don't compare to what we have had available last season.

If we'd spent 30m on Archer, Ramsey and Giles in the summer we would have had expectations of being in and around that top two, if they'd have shown the levels of consistency that Rogers, Lath and Engel are showing we'd be giving them pelters in those performances and then singing their praises the next time they turned it on.

The hope is clearly that after a full season at a higher level, with better players, against better players, that enough of these lads improve and/or showcase themselves enough to make for better long-term financial investments for the club.

I think we've been chronically unlucky not to have Smith, Lenihan, O'Brien, McGree and Forss fit as with those lads added to the first team squad we might have seen the other lads develop a little more consistency.

-------------Dieng --------------
Smith -- Rav -- Lenihan -- Engel
-----O'Brien --- Hackney -------
Jones --- Greenwood ---- Mcgree
------------Latte Lath-------------

Now you could prefer Bangura in at full back for pure pace, Fry for experience or McNair for composure at centre half, Dijk at fullback for those little triangles we create down the right.

You could prefer Howson for leadership in for O'Brien (drive) or even for Greenwood and push Hackney further forward to allow better fullback cover. Barlaser is struggling to get in there yet stats seem to show his importance in starting moves for us.

You might be a big fan of Crooksy and his knack of getting the best out of Jones and being in the right place at the right time.

Perhaps you think Rogers is better in the hole for turning teams or Forss is better in the first half before Jones scares a tired fullback to death in the last half hour.

Big Josh could be a better bet than Lath if we want to bully some centre halves, Lath could even drop into a deeper role if we're feeling confident.


However, we haven't been afforded these options and the new lads have been under immediate pressure to perform at a level they haven't previously in their careers and maybe never will. Hopefully it has done them some good and we see some start to flourish so that our team in the second half of the season or next has the consistency to do what Ipswich are doing at the moment.

I foresee a midfielder and a centre forward as priorities in January and/or the summer if the deal is right. Don't be surprised to see us look at the prem for two loans if we can't get a permanent solution to improve the squad over the line.

Fullback (both sides) is definitely to be looked at unless we start seeing more consistency and centre half as well dependent on McNair's situation.

Greenwood is signed if Leeds don't go up, otherwise he's back to Leeds and someone else will take a chance at that price with a higher wage.

Buzzing for tomorrow, proper knock out game and I'm bricking it!

UTFB!

Our defence was at it's most 'solid' when McNair was involved and we play better as a team with Coburn rather than Lath. Other than that if we can tighten up defensively, be that with new players or a tweak in formation, I can see this season ending in and around the play offs. In all honesty that's probably our best hope of promotion in the short to medium term, given their parachute payments the relegated EPL clubs will always more than likely take top two. For example, say Leicester, Ipswich and Leeds go up this year, then I would expect to see Southampton, Burnley and Sheffield Utd vying for top two next season and pretty much rinse and repeat there after until there's a restructure!

 

[Nano]

He ended up with Chuba Akpom.. he wanted Dwight Gayle on £60k a week and also David McGoldrick

We lost momentum at the end.. Howson being injured probably had the biggest effect.. tight margins.. but we'd lost Aaron Ramsey to injury, Ryan GIles was running on 50% and it wouldn't surprise me if the rest of our loan players weren't 100% focused.

We swung well.. recruitment was spot on.. we missed out on a replacement for Cameron Archer.. but maybe that was a blessing in disguise.. not sure how the alternatives are getting on?

I'd love to know where I can get whatever you are on Newy. The optimism is admirable but very misplaced.

Recruitment, again, has been really poor. Bringing in young players to develop can work but you have to have a fairly settled squad and introduce one or two at a time. We didn't have that, even without the injuries. We were missing 5 of last season's first 11 so we had no chance of being settled. Bringing in the bench players as 1st choice was a backwards step but they are now the experienced players we are missing through injury. That's just not the time to throw in a load of untested players. So far they have struggled, massively, and no amount of comparisons to this time last season when we had also struggled massively can be taken as a positive indicator of things about to change.

We are going nowhere this season. I feel sorry for Carrick because he has been given an impossible job and I think by the time we get to a point where we have a settled enough squad to be able to effectively develop players he will be off to bigger and better things.

 

[TheWolfman]

I'd love to know where I can get whatever you are on Newy. The optimism is admirable but very misplaced.

Recruitment, again, has been really poor. Bringing in young players to develop can work but you have to have a fairly settled squad and introduce one or two at a time. We didn't have that, even without the injuries. We were missing 5 of last season's first 11 so we had no chance of being settled. Bringing in the bench players as 1st choice was a backwards step but they are now the experienced players we are missing through injury. That's just not the time to throw in a load of untested players. So far they have struggled, massively, and no amount of comparisons to this time last season when we had also struggled massively can be taken as a positive indicator of things about to change.

We are going nowhere this season. I feel sorry for Carrick because he has been given an impossible job and I think by the time we get to a point where we have a settled enough squad to be able to effectively develop players he will be off to bigger and better things.

The club have admitted that last season was a roll of the dice going with lots of loan players. They admitted it was a short term choice to try and get up quickly. This never worked so we have had to try another route and this is more long term and less expensive.

We were never ever going to replace like for like from last years team or bring in first team numbers along with lots of promising players.

I dont think the club expected to be top 4 with this squad but probably expect to be in the play off spots i think injuries has dented them plans.

 

[indeedido]

We have a very ordinary Championship squad and no high quality.
Last season Akpom, Archer and Ramsey were very high quality.
We have nothing remotely like it.

 

[Rofesleg]

Yes just look at Brighton Brentford Bournemouth Fulham… it’s a myth you get up then you worry about it then.

There’s never a right or wrong time to be promoted you go up when you can all this So called building for the following season talk is rubbish.

Look at Coventry and how they are doing now.

Obviously no team deliberately misses a chance of promotion in order to develop a bit more, but sometimes it is a blessing in disguise.
As for your examples of Brighton & Brentford - both hung around the top half/play-offs for a few seasons before finally going up. Maybe they were better prepared with more balanced squads because of that.

 

[Bruce]

We have a very ordinary Championship squad and no high quality.
Last season Akpom, Archer and Ramsey were very high quality.
We have nothing remotely like it.

We did only have Archer and Ramsey in the second half of the season and Ramsey started just 8 games for us. Arguably, we could push out the boat and get two players in on loan in January to a similar standard.

I agree that we are weaker this year than at the same time last year but it looks a lot worse than it is due to injuries. Factoring out injuries we have replaced Akpom and Giles with some combination of Crooks/Greenwood, Engel/Bangura. That is a big step down and would be a challenge to deal with at the best of times. Add in losing Smith, Lenihan, O'Brien, McGree & Forss to long-term or season-ending injuries as well as a revolving cast of short-term injuries then it's no surprise we are where we are.

Thing is, you could imagine a January window where we get Diallo, Worrall and a striker on loan, Hackney and O'Brien strike up a partnership, McGree returns to full fitness in February and suddenly this looks like the kind of a squad that could go on a real run. I don't think that's what will happen because we'll just end up with another massive rebuild, undoing most of the point of the summer recruitment.

It always comes down to how you look at it. If the summer recruitment was a big reset and then we refine the squad over the next few windows it may make sense but I do wonder if we'll get to 12 months down the line and find almost no one bar Dieng and RVDB in the team.