The end?

Scrote said:
What Israel is doing in Gaza is abhorrent and the Western governments aiding them in this are culpable for the outcome, whatever that is.

However, that doesn't mean all war is unjust or that all conflicts are equal. Ukraine is defending itself from an external aggressor. Putin isn't going to change his plans through any democratic process.

Unfortunately Russian citizens have allowed it to get this far, much like UK citizens have allowed the Tories a rapacious decade. The fact that plenty of people aren't happy with it is immaterial when the majority are willing to put up with no end of privation.

The civilian population always suffers for the people they allow to hold power. It was always thus.
Click to expand...
What Hammas did on October 7th was abhorrent and afterwards Hamas leaders celebrated their barbarism and called for it to be repeated.

Sinwar proclaimed: “The leaders of the occupation should know. October 7 was just a rehearsal.”

Ghazi Hamad, a member of the Hamas politburo, called for more attacks and the annihilation of Israel, saying “We will do this again and again.”

Faced with such genocidal intent exactly what should a government do, whether Israeli or Ukrainian?
 
Millbrook said:
What Hammas did on October 7th was abhorrent and afterwards Hamas leaders celebrated their barbarism and called for it to be repeated.

Sinwar proclaimed: “The leaders of the occupation should know. October 7 was just a rehearsal.”

Ghazi Hamad, a member of the Hamas politburo, called for more attacks and the annihilation of Israel, saying “We will do this again and again.”

Faced with such genocidal intent exactly what should a government do, whether Israeli or Ukrainian?
Click to expand...
The people of paletine are not hamas, so try not killing and destroying the lives of the people of palestine.

Also, there are some israelis calling for the destruction of palestinians, do two wrongs make a right? Because that IS what is occurring on a far larger scale than Hamas's attack.
 
Ok. I just about disagree with everything posted in the last couple of hours.

The points throughout this thread seem to be that :
- Putin died years ago
- General consensus is that nukes would never be an option for Putin. He is mad, just not that mad.
- Possible flashpoint between west and Russia is not likely so, lets go after Putin.
- Chemical weapons have been used in Ukraine by Russia.
- Ukraine war is similar to pre-WW2 and Putin is the same as Hitler
- Putin is on the brink of defeat
- Putin begs for arms from North Korea and Iran because he has no reserves left
- Putin has masses of reserves and arms ready for another invasion as soon as he is done in Ukraine
- Russia is so weak that it was almost taken over in a coup from a private company of mercenaries - stopped just a few miles short of the Kremlin without much resistance from the Russian army
- Russians are a very proud nation, behind Putin, that will celebrate the war in Ukraine.
- Dissent amongst Russians is high and borders had to be locked down to prevent them from leaving the country by the 1000s, rather than fight
- Russians had chances to get rid of Putin, but didnt, so fu.ck them all.
- Such is morale in the Russian army, they station troops behind the front to execute any retreating soldiers.
- Putins grip on power is as strong as ever.
- Putins grip was so weak that he was on the brink of being overthrown christ knows how many times
- Lukashenko in Belarus is the defacto leader of Russia and he is the one who wants to restore the USSR
- Why should we stop buying his gas if he is going to sell it to somebody else, anyway?
- It is facetious to suggest that Europe SHOULD stop buying Russian gas. its a silly idea. They already have a load of money so, a bit more wont make any difference.
 
MoggasDog said:
Ok. I just about disagree with everything posted in the last couple of hours.

The points throughout this thread seem to be that :
- Putin died years ago
- General consensus is that nukes would never be an option for Putin. He is mad, just not that mad.
- Possible flashpoint between west and Russia is not likely so, lets go after Putin.
- Chemical weapons have been used in Ukraine by Russia.
- Ukraine war is similar to pre-WW2 and Putin is the same as Hitler
- Putin is on the brink of defeat
- Putin begs for arms from North Korea and Iran because he has no reserves left
- Putin has masses of reserves and arms ready for another invasion as soon as he is done in Ukraine
- Russia is so weak that it was almost taken over in a coup from a private company of mercenaries - stopped just a few miles short of the Kremlin without much resistance from the Russian army
- Russians are a very proud nation, behind Putin, that will celebrate the war in Ukraine.
- Dissent amongst Russians is high and borders had to be locked down to prevent them from leaving the country by the 1000s, rather than fight
- Russians had chances to get rid of Putin, but didnt, so fu.ck them all.
- Such is morale in the Russian army, they station troops behind the front to execute any retreating soldiers.
- Putins grip on power is as strong as ever.
- Putins grip was so weak that he was on the brink of being overthrown christ knows how many times
- Lukashenko in Belarus is the defacto leader of Russia and he is the one who wants to restore the USSR
- Why should we stop buying his gas if he is going to sell it to somebody else, anyway?
- It is facetious to suggest that Europe SHOULD stop buying Russian gas. its a silly idea. They already have a load of money so, a bit more wont make any difference.
Click to expand...
I really understand your worries and concerns with whats happening, EVERYONE should be concerned. This is a potentially globally significant war that could go up like a tinder box at any point. However, you're (rightly) wanting to see an end to this utter madness, what do you propose happens that will bring the war to a permanent end?
 
MoggasDog said:
Ok. I just about disagree with everything posted in the last couple of hours.

The points throughout this thread seem to be that :
- Putin died years ago
- General consensus is that nukes would never be an option for Putin. He is mad, just not that mad.
- Possible flashpoint between west and Russia is not likely so, lets go after Putin.
- Chemical weapons have been used in Ukraine by Russia.
- Ukraine war is similar to pre-WW2 and Putin is the same as Hitler
- Putin is on the brink of defeat
- Putin begs for arms from North Korea and Iran because he has no reserves left
- Putin has masses of reserves and arms ready for another invasion as soon as he is done in Ukraine
- Russia is so weak that it was almost taken over in a coup from a private company of mercenaries - stopped just a few miles short of the Kremlin without much resistance from the Russian army
- Russians are a very proud nation, behind Putin, that will celebrate the war in Ukraine.
- Dissent amongst Russians is high and borders had to be locked down to prevent them from leaving the country by the 1000s, rather than fight
- Russians had chances to get rid of Putin, but didnt, so fu.ck them all.
- Such is morale in the Russian army, they station troops behind the front to execute any retreating soldiers.
- Putins grip on power is as strong as ever.
- Putins grip was so weak that he was on the brink of being overthrown christ knows how many times
- Lukashenko in Belarus is the defacto leader of Russia and he is the one who wants to restore the USSR
- Why should we stop buying his gas if he is going to sell it to somebody else, anyway?
- It is facetious to suggest that Europe SHOULD stop buying Russian gas. its a silly idea. They already have a load of money so, a bit more wont make any difference.
Click to expand...

You don’t actually engage with the points made to you, … Putin has repeatedly told us his aims, he does want more land, Ukraine is not the final part of the jigsaw, Russia is selling fossil fuels elsewhere… if you disagree with ‘most things’ posted recently then you are demonstrably wrong.

Some of what you suggest above is very much taken out of context, you’ve reduced so many previously debated issues, some of which were never stated as fact, into short cherrypicked snippets often displaying your own spin. How are you expecting people to debate in good faith?

There’s certainly some hyperbole and far fetched theories in this thread, it would be incredibly entertaining if the subject wasn’t so utterly grim. However, seemingly contradictory statements can be true at the same time…
-a dictator can be both strong and at risk (they’re always strong until all of a sudden they’re not).
-citizens can be outwardly bullish yet anti-war behind closed doors.
-a military can have stockpiles yet require supplies and allies (it’s a constantly fluid situation anyway).
-people can be compelled to fight despite low morale.
-we can be wary of escalation without believing all of Putin’s red lines.
-I can celebrate Ukrainian victories while feeling deeply sad at the loss of life on both sides.
-etc etc.

You don’t have to believe every theory or situation described in this thread, no one is going to be right on every point, but your post above reads as very dismissive of the people in this thread with significant experience and/or great interest in the region and its history.
 
MoggasDog said:
Ok. I just about disagree with everything posted in the last couple of hours.

The points throughout this thread seem to be that :
- Putin died years ago
- General consensus is that nukes would never be an option for Putin. He is mad, just not that mad.
- Possible flashpoint between west and Russia is not likely so, lets go after Putin.
- Chemical weapons have been used in Ukraine by Russia.
- Ukraine war is similar to pre-WW2 and Putin is the same as Hitler
- Putin is on the brink of defeat
- Putin begs for arms from North Korea and Iran because he has no reserves left
- Putin has masses of reserves and arms ready for another invasion as soon as he is done in Ukraine
- Russia is so weak that it was almost taken over in a coup from a private company of mercenaries - stopped just a few miles short of the Kremlin without much resistance from the Russian army
- Russians are a very proud nation, behind Putin, that will celebrate the war in Ukraine.
- Dissent amongst Russians is high and borders had to be locked down to prevent them from leaving the country by the 1000s, rather than fight
- Russians had chances to get rid of Putin, but didnt, so fu.ck them all.
- Such is morale in the Russian army, they station troops behind the front to execute any retreating soldiers.
- Putins grip on power is as strong as ever.
- Putins grip was so weak that he was on the brink of being overthrown christ knows how many times
- Lukashenko in Belarus is the defacto leader of Russia and he is the one who wants to restore the USSR
- Why should we stop buying his gas if he is going to sell it to somebody else, anyway?
- It is facetious to suggest that Europe SHOULD stop buying Russian gas. its a silly idea. They already have a load of money so, a bit more wont make any difference.
Click to expand...
Things change, what was hoped for yesterday may have slipped away today. A strategic misstep at the wrong time can take a year to make right in an industrial conflict of this size.

In Ukraine right now we have the single most glaringly binary conflict we are hopefully ever to live through where there is a clear wrong side and a clear right side.

There is no opening for any whataboutery in this war.

To end the war quickly is for the wrong side to make happen

To end the war slowly is what the right side is having to do.
 
Smoggle said:
You don’t actually engage with the points made to you, … Putin has repeatedly told us his aims, he does want more land, Ukraine is not the final part of the jigsaw, Russia is selling fossil fuels elsewhere… if you disagree with ‘most things’ posted recently then you are demonstrably wrong.

Some of what you suggest above is very much taken out of context, you’ve reduced so many previously debated issues, some of which were never stated as fact, into short cherrypicked snippets often displaying your own spin. How are you expecting people to debate in good faith
Click to expand...
and of course, you are completely right. My mind is changed. Cheers for that. War is good and Putin should be chased til the end of the earth. All fact.
Have you got a contact number I can get you on in case I am demonstrably wrong on anything else in the future? Saves time, that's all.
 
MoggasDog said:
Again, people, please explain to me how it is not total hypocrisy to claim to fight Putin and keep paying him for gas?
Click to expand...
Its not possible as it is hypocritical.

Its also realpolitik as countries overly reliant on Ruzzia for energy couldn't let their populations freeze and industry fail so withdrawing from Ruzzia economically adds pressure on top of the military pressure

Are Ruzzian reductions direct to Europe taken up by India - yes they do (at a reduced price).

Does India then sell it onto Europe - yes it does (at a profit).

Its not a fair place is it this planet Earth.
 
Smoggle said:
You don’t have to believe every theory or situation described in this thread, no one is going to be right on every point, but your post above reads as very dismissive of the people in this thread with significant experience and/or great interest in the region and its history.
Click to expand...
Or, maybe, you need to get over yourself and stop assuming that my post is in reply to you, personally. You clearly see yourself as a world authority on all of this and anything I said that you dont agree with happened to be aimed at you.
 
WeeGord said:
I really understand your worries and concerns with whats happening, EVERYONE should be concerned. This is a potentially globally significant war that could go up like a tinder box at any point. However, you're (rightly) wanting to see an end to this utter madness, what do you propose happens that will bring the war to a permanent end?
Click to expand...
Honestly, I have no idea. But all I can think of is that some other country manages to get both countries to agree to a way to stop the killing. Opening a dialogue is a start. This has to stop.
 
MoggasDog said:
Honestly, I have no idea. But all I can think of is that some other country manages to get both countries to agree to a way to stop the killing. Opening a dialogue is a start. This has to stop.
Click to expand...
So Putin agrees, as he has done many times in the past, signs an agreement even. Then when he’s ready he just invades again, as he has so many times in the past. Then what? Another agreement? You can’t negotiate with him because he doesn’t operate by norms we can understand and can never be trusted.
 
Muttley said:
Enter the debate instead of grandstanding and posting truisms.
Click to expand...
I do not understand. This is a messageboard that I like to discuss things on. I have been reading this thread for a long time, like others. I posted the contradictions I see with the posts on here as a point of reference. I am not grandstanding.
Muttley said:
Now tell us how you propose stop it. I'd love to see a way out of shedding more blood (as I expect would everyone who has posted on this thread)
Click to expand...
I do not have a proposal but I didnt think it was a pre-requisite to post my opinions.

I simply do not like the inference that this war just has to carry on.
For some reason, people are taking what I have posted personally. And some seem to think that their OPINION is gospel. I have been fascinated by the posts from the Ukraine but they are clearly biased from a military perspective, as you would expect for somebody who is actually stationed on the frontline.

I posted the clear contradictions from the news and twitter etc. Not to poke fun at whoever posted but to make the point that there is a lot of misinformation for people to decide that it is a forgone conclusion that Russia will continue to invade other countries after Ukraine.

People seem to accept this 'next russian invasion' a a fact; it will happen and that I am being naïve or even ignorant to say otherwise. The same things were said about WMD in Iraq. All military intelligence pointed to the 'facts' of Iraqi WMD, all ready to go and an immediate threat and it could only be solved by invasion and war.
 
Last edited:
I understand how you feel @MoggasDog , instinctively. I'd guess everyone contributing to this thread, including the General who informs it, wants the war to be over. He has actually got important things to be doing, saving lives, when this is over.

But this is not some morally questionable war that Ukraine is fighting. It is the defence of their country, their liberty and their future. And Russia/Russians are not the enemy. The Ukrainian Chief of Staff is Russian. Tank Girl is Russian (back to her in a minute). There are Russians currently fighting within Russia, against Putin's regime.

There is a good and bad in this war. You have just watched Mariupol. You could easily also have watched something about the genocide in Bucha, if it were available on UK TV. There is one side in this war that has lied "We have no intention of invading Ukraine". Has kidnapped thousands of children. Has executed masses of civilians in cold blood. Has specifically and deliberately targeted hospitals, schools and other civilian targets with missiles. And yes, has invaded a neighbouring country with the intent of replacing the democratically elected government ... not to mention to grab land and resources.

Back to Tank Girl. She was an ethnic Russian hairdresser in Donetsk. In 2014 her husband and child were killed in front of her in horrific circumstances. She did not plan for her life to be at war. She wants her home back. Her neighbourhood. Being one of the top Generals in the conflict, as she is now, is not what she would have wished for herself. Watching men who fight in her army come back in pieces and having to talk to their families is not what she would have wanted. Telling her that she should sit around a table and talk with the gangsters that started this war is not going to fly.

If some thugs barged into your house and killed/did unspeakable things to your family in front of your eyes, then took up residence. I doubt you'd be sitting down to watch "Gone Fishing" with them of an evening.

This will not stop until the gangsters are defeated. They know the The Hague awaits them, so thy aren't about to just say "sorry, we made a bit of a whoopsy on the carpet.... we'll leave you alone now".

I should add, in response to your last point, the Putin regime's plans are well known. They are on paper. The rest of Europe has read them. That is why you are starting to see boots on the ground.
 
Millbrook said:
What Hammas did on October 7th was abhorrent and afterwards Hamas leaders celebrated their barbarism and called for it to be repeated.
Click to expand...
What Israel did in the months and years before October 7th was abhorrent ad infinitum...

I'm not sure why your whataboutery was directed at me considering I was responding to an earlier post which was trying to compare Gaza with Ukraine.

MoggasDog said:
The same things were said about WMD in Iraq. All military intelligence pointed to the 'facts' of Iraqi WMD, all ready to go and an immediate threat and it could only be solved by invasion and war.
Click to expand...
There was a rather large protest about the Iraq war BECAUSE people didn't accept the 'facts'. The difference here is that all the available facts and evidence we've been able to see (often almost in real time) points to the Russian regime being the 'bad guy'.

Being anti-war doesn't preclude accepting that people will defend themselves when provoked.
 
MoggasDog said:
I do not have a proposal but I didnt think it was a pre-requisite to post my opinions.
Click to expand...
It's not but you say that you want to take part in the discussion.

So to help you I will outline some possible scenarios for ending this war now.

1. Ukraine and Russian agree a cease fire, Russia goes home

2. Ukraine and Russian agree a cease fire, Ukraine surrenders and a pro-Russian puppet is placed in charge ala Lukashenko in Belarus

3. Ukraine and Russian agree a cease fire at the present positions and those become the new de facto borders between Ukraine and Russia

4. Ukraine and Russian agree a cease fire, Russia returns to the pre-2022 borders

5. Ukraine and Russian agree a cease fire, Russia returns to post Soviet borders.

Pick one and tell me why the two Nations/Leaders would agree to it. Because as I see it none of them would satisfy both and two of them would satisfy neither. You then need to discuss how to guarantee any borders so agreed would be policed and how any further military action would be prevented.
 
I am obviously not expressing myself very clearly because a lot of you have totally misunderstood what I am saying.
Some of the replies I got were just daft and extremely patronising from people getting on their high horse and talking as if they are serving intelligence officers or diplomats with access to high level info. Some necks definitely need winding all the way back in. Good lads.

I am not a pacifist and fully support Ukraine defending herself entirely. Who could possibly argue against it?

I questioned both Putin's desire to invade another country after Ukraine and also his ability to do this even if he wanted to.
But this started because, this morning, I repeated my worry that this war could escalate and that I think Putin should have a way out.

I genuinely have not seen any evidence that Putin has a plan for other invasions. A couple on here have put me right on that so I am actually looking for it, now that the match has finished.
And I will never, ever understand how any country can claim to support Ukraine whilst simultaneously buying Russian gas. No chance. It is sickening duplicity.
All this just a couple of years since our own Russian report was redacted and swept under the carpet.
 
MoggasDog said:
and of course, you are completely right. My mind is changed. Cheers for that. War is good and Putin should be chased til the end of the earth. All fact.
Have you got a contact number I can get you on in case I am demonstrably wrong on anything else in the future? Saves time, that's all.
Click to expand...

No actual debating any raised points, just a quite sarky reply. I’ve never said war is good, grow up and debate properly or don’t bother.
 
Smoggle said:
No actual debating any raised points, just a quite sarky reply. I’ve never said war is good, grow up and debate properly or don’t bother.
Click to expand...
Good lad. And your number for advice in the future? I understand a lot of what you pontificate is mission sensitive but I can wait.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top