The end?
- Thread starter borolad259
- Start date
Ever since this horrible thing started, I have had this dreadful feeling that it will escalate into who knows what.
It is being used as some kind of sick game, especially by US republicans.I know it goes against convention and any sense of justice but the world needs to give the evil bast.ard Putin a way out.
The same has to be said for Gaza. We cannot allow innocents to be slaughtered, day after day after day.
It has to be stopped. Now.
It is being used as some kind of sick game, especially by US republicans.I know it goes against convention and any sense of justice but the world needs to give the evil bast.ard Putin a way out.
The same has to be said for Gaza. We cannot allow innocents to be slaughtered, day after day after day.
It has to be stopped. Now.
"Putin" has a way out. Get back to 1991 borders. This "thing" has been going on for a decade or more now, and has got to where we are now because, for too long, Putin was appeased and allowed to get away with occupation/land grab (and by extension, natural resources ... which is what the gangsters are mostly interested in).
I am, by inclination, anti-war. But, in this case, I can see that the mob in charge of Russia have to be stopped. Not just for the sake of Ukrainians, but Estonians, Lithuanians, Moldovans etc etc and also all the repressed peoples within the Russian federation.
Just to give you an idea of the mindset of those in power in Russia, they use the term "consumables" to describe mobilised soldiers.
What about the english term 'collateral damage'? We are just as bad. War is war. The military is blood thirsty and is trained to be exactly that, no matter what flag is behind them.
Again, this is being drawn as 'good vs evil' with Russia on one side and half the righteous world on the other.
The Russians are victims in this, too. How many reports has your mate made that prove how scared and unprepared their conscripts are? What about the fact that Putin had to lock the fuc.king borders to prevent people from fleeing conscription? This thread also has many examples where Russian soldiers being blown to smithereens - applauded and enjoyed. APCs blown up, full of spotty young kids frightened half to death. The same Russian conscripts that are faced with their own soldiers executing them if they retreat.
Throwing weaponry at Ukraine - that will need to pay for- and encouraging them to defend themselves into oblivion, in itself is an evil act. It stinks of Afghanistan in the 80s. It is a proxy war. 'Yeh, you fight the good fight and sacrifice your children. We will keep sending you the guns to keep this conflict going until the last of you is dead. and by the way, we want paying for all of this sh.it as well as a guarantee that you will use our companies to rebuild your country'.
Putin got where he was buy buying a lot of western politicians. Those politicians are the same ones selling weapons to the other side. Money, money, money.
Putin refuses to withdraw. Eventually, both sides will run out of soldiers. Then what? What will have been achieved by the Ukraine sacrificing its population to maintain the war?
If it is another 2 or 3 years and another couple of million dead? Then they decide to talk and find a way out. Millions dead but they were 'right'.
Great, let’s just leave Ukraine to Putin, he’ll be happy then won’t he? They might as well be Russian anyway. He’ll certainly not push into weaker targets like Moldova, Georgia and maybe even Kazakhstan. They might as well be Russians too as they were part of the empire. He’ll stop there though. Definitely not interested in the Baltics or Poland. There’ll be no more war.
Putin has consistently told us what he wants and we didn’t listen. We didn’t listen to his Munich speech. We didn’t listen to Estonia after the cyber attacks. We didn’t listen to Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine all them years ago. Appeasement will lead to more oppression, death and destruction, eventually someone has to say stop and unfortunately it’s the Ukrainians bearing the brunt. But you tell them to stop and see if they agree
Yet again, people hawkishly assume there are only two ways out - total destruction of the enemy or a humiliating defeat.Great, let’s just leave Ukraine to Putin, he’ll be happy then won’t he? They might as well be Russian anyway. He’ll certainly not push into weaker targets like Moldova, Georgia and maybe even Kazakhstan. They might as well be Russians too as they were part of the empire. He’ll stop there though. Definitely not interested in the Baltics or Poland. There’ll be no more war.
Putin has consistently told us what he wants and we didn’t listen. We didn’t listen to his Munich speech. We didn’t listen to Estonia after the cyber attacks. We didn’t listen to Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine all them years ago. Appeasement will lead to more oppression, death and destruction, eventually someone has to say stop and unfortunately it’s the Ukrainians bearing the brunt. But you tell them to stop and see if they agree
What about a ceasefire negotiated by the world?
And the Palestinians? We are happily tooling up Israel - democratically elected- to commit genocide - 30k civilians killed, and counting. The atrocities witnessed in Ukraine are the same witnessed in Gaza. Civilians that cannot defend themselves whatsoever because they are oppressed by the same country attacking them.
Why is that different to Putin? We see fit to encourage Ukraine to fight back but arm Israel to wipe out undefended Palestinians.
Great, let's carry on with the double standards, making money from war and then, occasionally, invade the odd country when the rest of the planet says we shouldn't (and also a large part of our own population). It's ok, though, we still get rich from the arms trades and its just the Ukrainians, Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghanis, Syrians, Yemenis and Russians who are killed
Keep punishing ordinary Russians for Putin's sins. Of course, we have to keep buying his gas. That would just be daft to stop. I mean, its right for Ukraine to sacrifices their kids but we cant be expected not use Russian gas. It might get fu.cking cold.
But in order to have a ceasefire negotiation, both sides have to agree to ceasefire and negotiate, surely? At the moment, it is proving impossible to get to that point for the assorted diplomatic moves behind the scenes. Similarly with Israel and a Hamas. Apparently they were close, but the second ceasefire just failed to be agreed before Ramadan which apparently put it out of reach. Noone can impose a ceasefire from outside in either is these 2 conflicts, and there is massive worldwide interest in doing so. That's just shows how difficult it is to stop a war one it starts and re-emphasises how important it is to try and prevent them starting.
I don’t see ‘the world’ lining up to agree a ceasefire. The UN is hardly united on Russia. It’s not hawkish to want to see a dictator removed, a dictator that has broken a long list of treaties signed by Russia agreeing to Ukraine’s territorial integrity. To think he wouldn’t break another one is to fundamentally misunderstand Putin and his stated aims for Russia.
I’m not discussing Israel-Palestine, it’s a different conflict with different history and fought for different reasons. We might as well bring Sudan or Myanmar into the mix but it’s not helpful.
I agree the arms trade is abhorrent and immoral. I also agree that recent interventions by the UK have been at best unwise. Still doesn’t mean a country that has a rich and varied history (most of which separate from Russian domination) doing its utmost to defend itself from Russian imperialist aggression.
What is an ordinary Russian? They’re a pretty varied bunch, I know as I lived there and still have Russian friends. They have state controlled media and are subject to an extensive and evermore brutal system that can now imprison people on the mildest of criticisms. Don’t be an opposition politician, critical journalist or defector, it’s a good way to a death sentence. Russia is rotten, far worse than the UK, at least we can protest and vote. By leaving innocent Russians under that system we are condemning them to brutality, talk about victims and collateral damage eh?
You’re right about the failure of western politicians who thought they could take Russian money and everything would be great, many countries were wedded unwisely to Russian fossil fuels and it’s now prudent to move away from that source, that doesn’t happen quickly unfortunately, but it is happening.
But talking of kids, my daughter’s best friend is Ukrainian, from a patriotic family. They would like to return to their country at some point, an occupied Ukraine would prevent those kids returning to their homeland indefinitely. It’s Ukraine’s decision to fight and it’s the right thing to assist them, if Ukrainians choose en masse to stop, that too is their choice.
Scrote
Well-known member
What Israel is doing in Gaza is abhorrent and the Western governments aiding them in this are culpable for the outcome, whatever that is.
However, that doesn't mean all war is unjust or that all conflicts are equal. Ukraine is defending itself from an external aggressor. Putin isn't going to change his plans through any democratic process.
Unfortunately Russian citizens have allowed it to get this far, much like UK citizens have allowed the Tories a rapacious decade. The fact that plenty of people aren't happy with it is immaterial when the majority are willing to put up with no end of privation.
The civilian population always suffers for the people they allow to hold power. It was always thus.
However, that doesn't mean all war is unjust or that all conflicts are equal. Ukraine is defending itself from an external aggressor. Putin isn't going to change his plans through any democratic process.
Unfortunately Russian citizens have allowed it to get this far, much like UK citizens have allowed the Tories a rapacious decade. The fact that plenty of people aren't happy with it is immaterial when the majority are willing to put up with no end of privation.
The civilian population always suffers for the people they allow to hold power. It was always thus.
Muttley
Well-known member
Russia has a very easy way out of this. Ukraine doesn't. Russia wants to conquer Ukraine and is prepared to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of its young men to achieve that. How do you negotiate with that? It would be lovely if someone would put a bullet through Vlad's head and everyone could just go home. But like all dictators he is an elusive target and even that might not guarantee that his replacement would call a halt.
Like many/most others on here I am vehemently anti war but this appears to be a lesson that Russia (as a nation) has to learn and it has to learn it the hard way sadly. That's not "hawkish" it is the reality of the situation.
Lets face it: if the yanks decided that this is a time to look for peace then it would happen. No ifs or buts. If Zelensky understood that arms are not going to be provided forever then at least he would have to consider negotiating.
Even if Putin was daft enough to try this atrocity again with another ex-soviet country, from what we have learned from this thread, he would have enlist himself to the frontline because they wont be anybody left and nothing to fight with. Would he risk his so-called national pride in a defeat against a much smaller country after depleting all his military resources in Ukraine?
Would he really get the support to try it again? As evil as he is, he is very intelligent, if he was opposed and put under serious pressure by Wagner in Ukraine, would he seriously risk it all again?
Would it not be more likely to provoke a change in power during peacetime in Russia rather than when they are under a war footing and martial control? How would things change when conscripts return from the frontline and these things become common knowledge?
And of course, we cannot use what 'might' happen to perpetuate this or any war.
I hate these double standards with the gas. If europe was serious about helping Ukraine they could immediately stop buying gas. Once the oligarchs start losing billions then Putins - or whoever is in power- grip with the money will go with it.
Scrote
Well-known member
What do you mean by negotiate?
You seem to be implying we should just leave Ukraine to whatever fate Putin has in store.
I have no idea how you managed to come that conclusion.
I have not once suggested that Ukraine should fu.cking surrender. Ever.
I would bet my life that this is fact: most people on both sides want this to stop. 99.99% of them.
Why not just try to stop? We need a way out that does not depend on one side 'winning'
BoroMart
Well-known member
and that is the reality of it. Yes activity will create collateral damage. However inactivity also creates lots of collateral damage too. It was the same with Iraq, everyone is quick in hindsight to dig out Blair and Bush for collateral damage but years of inactivity created lots of misery, death, corruption, oppression and would have continued to do so had no action ever been taken. It's the same with Russia today,
El Guapo
Well-known member
Hitler was appeased for several years prior to WW2, the same has happened with Putin and unsurprisingly he is emboldened to push further, today Ukraine, tomorrow The Baltics, Kazakhstan, Georgia and so on (Hitler - Austria, Czech Rep, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, France, Poland). Parallels are there. Putin needs to be put in a box as Hitler was. I’m anti-war and find it sad it’s happening all over again due to one man’s ‘vision’. The war neds to be over soonest and stop, but there’s no point in it stopping with Putin and his gangsters being appeased and still in charge……he’ll just do it all again down the line if so.
Is that a quote from Lee Anderson, by any chance?
Jesus. I wouldn't know where to start with any of that.
The Ukrainians repelled the initial march on Kyiv with barely a hint of western assistance, most pundits thought they were done for. I think there was a time the US could have asked for negotiations, but Russia has stated its minimum terms and that involves Ukraine losing the ‘claimed’ oblasts that Russia doesn’t even control. That would be unacceptable to Ukrainians and they’ve shown they can and will fight, without US support it would be more difficult and maybe an unjust treaty would be the outcome, however that would just be a green light for Putin to regroup and go again.
The Georgian, Moldovan and Kazakh militaries are not a patch on what Ukraine could call on. Russia already controls significant Georgian and Moldovan territory. There’s a couple of very good reasons Kazakhstan moved its capital from Almaty to Astana aside from the official ones… to move away from the Chinese border and to be closer to the Russian dominated north, it’s flat as a pancake there and vast swathes of land could be taken by a larger military if they had designs on reclaiming Russian speaking lands (we’ve heard that before). If Ukraine fell then those countries would be terrified of Russia coming at them after they have had time to replenish.
There’s no opposition to stop him. Prigozhin swung and missed, he swiftly paid the price, although they have built a statue of him and his openly Nazi colleague Utkin.
If he’s allowed to be successful in Ukraine then it’ll be spun as a victory with heroic sacrifices made by the brave Russian people. I’ve lived there and seen the downright military fetishisation of WW2, people say Brits are obsessed but Russia takes it to a whole new level. The Ukraine war would be treated similarly, it already is. There is and would be dissent, but it’s a police state, I’ve been in Pushkin Square the day after protests that were swiftly quashed, apart from the masses of police you would never know anything had taken place.
Of course ‘what might happen’ can perpetuate a war, based on probabilities, previous actions and what the man and his minions actually say we can certainly act on what might happen because we’re pretty sure how things are going to go.
They’re already selling oil and gas elsewhere, China and India are vast oil hungry economies who are not turning down cheap fossil fuels now that Europe is weening itself of Russian supplies. Russia has other buyers, the oligarchs are still rich and Putin is not under threat from them, besides he broke and heeled the dissenting oligarchs years ago, I think he even did it in Stalin’s old Kuntsevo dacha (close to where I used to live), purely for the effect it would have.
El Guapo
Well-known member
The Zelenskyy plan is there already, on the table, backed by Erdogan ... it just needs the "Putins" to agree, before they do face defeat.