That’s it then. No Deal

FabioPorkpie said:
I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned already in this thread, (as I’ve not had time to trawl through all the arguing over the past couple of days) but there is a pretty embarrassing report doing the rounds from dinner the other night -

https://twitter.com/x/status/1337313829978509312

I’ve no idea how accurate it is, but the fact half of the U.K. wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised if this is exactly how events played out, and the other half would think it’s funny, says it all about the desperate state of affairs we are in.
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It would definitely be in keeping with his previous gaffs in foreign diplomacy.
 
Lefty said:
The EU have offered to extend the current rules for airlines and hauliers as well as for fishing to avoid some serious disruption and wouldn't you know it, Brexiters are going ape because they think the EU are trying to get an extra six months catching our fish.

'Perhaps take your frustration out in a contructive way.
'Write to your MP' Tick

'Write to the newspapers' Tick

'Start a peoples movement' Didn't start one but joined several, contributed to others, supporting financially and in other ways and attended several marches and demo's, including Farage's march for Brexit (which is more than most Leave voters) in order to try and understand what I was missing. Also spent many long hours reading the only Leave plan there was, some 700 pages plus, which is more than any Leave voter on here ever did, and had direct Q&A's with the lead author.

The thing is, the people who voted leave are culpable in this mess and in this government, because they didn't employ their usual good thinking practices when it comes to decision making. There is a ton of mitigation for them, unlike the politicians who led them, because it is complex, the media were shocking at the job they are supposed to do for us which is hold people to account. The facts weren't presented to people in the way they should have been. But the information was out there, it just took effort.

So anyone who voted Leave has to shoulder some responsibility, because it was bad reasoning, biases and laziness. They should not be vilified too much for that and indeed any that have changed their mind deserve praise because that is not easy and Remain voters have no idea if they would be able to do the same. If they have gone further than just changing their minds by actually trying to do something about it, then they can have as clear a conscience as anyone who voted Remain. However, anyone who still is unable to actually look open minded at the mountain of (new) information that has come out since the referendum is as responsible as Boris, Nigel, for everything that has happened since June 2016 and for many years since, including lumbering us with this lying incompetent rabble as a pandemic hit.
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Responsibility for what? For having an opinion? For wanting something different? Maybe they noticed the deliberate destruction of major industry in the major cities and thought what is the common thread.
You are by a long stretch the most articulate pro Remain activist on here, you remind me of RR but I am not sure if he backed Corbyn and that the EU is a dangerous place.
 
Same_as_before said:
Responsibility for what? For having an opinion? For wanting something different? Maybe they noticed the deliberate destruction of major industry in the major cities and thought what is the common thread.
You are by a long stretch the most articulate pro Remain activist on here, you remind me of RR but I am not sure if he backed Corbyn and that the EU is a dangerous place.
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Our fish 😒 that just about sums it up. The ridiculous and childish human concept of nation state land borders.
 
SmallTown said:
Defend yourself then. You seem to be missing this is the issue I have. You are doggedly sticking to something and you can’t actually defend it. I’m tired of repeating myself but I don’t know why it isn’t sinking in
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You're at it again ST with your aggression. I'm tired of repeating myself to you the notion that I have to defend myself to you says it all. No matter how many times you attempt to bully me into submission I do not regret the way I voted and there I shall end our exchanges.
 
Lefty said:
The EU have offered to extend the current rules for airlines and hauliers as well as for fishing to avoid some serious disruption and wouldn't you know it, Brexiters are going ape because they think the EU are trying to get an extra six months catching our fish.

'Perhaps take your frustration out in a contructive way.
'Write to your MP' Tick

'Write to the newspapers' Tick

'Start a peoples movement' Didn't start one but joined several, contributed to others, supporting financially and in other ways and attended several marches and demo's, including Farage's march for Brexit (which is more than most Leave voters) in order to try and understand what I was missing. Also spent many long hours reading the only Leave plan there was, some 700 pages plus, which is more than any Leave voter on here ever did, and had direct Q&A's with the lead author.

The thing is, the people who voted leave are culpable in this mess and in this government, because they didn't employ their usual good thinking practices when it comes to decision making. There is a ton of mitigation for them, unlike the politicians who led them, because it is complex, the media were shocking at the job they are supposed to do for us which is hold people to account. The facts weren't presented to people in the way they should have been. But the information was out there, it just took effort.

So anyone who voted Leave has to shoulder some responsibility, because it was bad reasoning, biases and laziness. They should not be vilified too much for that and indeed any that have changed their mind deserve praise because that is not easy and Remain voters have no idea if they would be able to do the same. If they have gone further than just changing their minds by actually trying to do something about it, then they can have as clear a conscience as anyone who voted Remain. However, anyone who still is unable to actually look open minded at the mountain of (new) information that has come out since the referendum is as responsible as Boris, Nigel, for everything that has happened since June 2016 and for many years since, including lumbering us with this lying incompetent rabble as a pandemic hit.
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I think the interim agreement that the EU are offering is a poison chalice for Johnson for the reasons I gave previously. He just doesn't have the political capitol to agree to that. He may ask for a like for like agreement ie 12 months both ways and try and dress it up. I suspect he will assume the EU are bluffing about airport rights and call their bluff. I have no idea whether they are bluffing or not but it certainly cuts noses to spite faces.

On the holding people to account for their vote lefty I don't agree with this in any way shape or form. The democratic process is secret for a very good reason and no one should be lambasted for exercising that right, even though I have done the self same thing to tory voters, it simply is not right.
 
Laughing said:
A lot of sense there festa I am just fed up of this circular debate and name calling.

I voted to leave the EU, would I take that vote back now? In a heartbeat. I never expected Johnson to be anywhere near this.

I think starmer had got this about right, call the government out on their promises and hold them to account when they fail to deliver. It serves a purpose that name calling doesn't.
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Yeah. I understand the name calling, probably been guilty of it myself at a mild level because it's cathartic and the length of feeling runs deep. I do try not to do it and certainly not to focus it towards individuals. You're bang on that it's not productive.

My anger is mostly at the shower in charge although I do despair that people keep backing them.
 
Hicktonpen10 said:
You're at it again ST with your aggression. I'm tired of repeating myself to you the notion that I have to defend myself to you says it all. No matter how many times you attempt to bully me into submission I do not regret the way I voted and there I shall end our exchanges.
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Yet you can't justify them? You see how that's frustrating? It's just really bad that this cataclysmic thing is happening to our country and people like you have caused it and don't know why.
 
Same_as_before said:
No I have debated for too long. I have many times listed a number of benefits, the answer is always the same, I am an ignorant racist.
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Thats not true though is it? You're cherry picking responses that allow you to dismiss others due a minority of responses that fit your narrative of everyone who question validity of the benefits you mention.

The same could equally be said of Brexiteers who shout remoaners.
 
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