Suella Braverman

Colgates_shaving_foam said:
I think it's fair to say she's attempting to take the party to the right of Reform! Truly despicable comments from her.

I really hope the tories do lurch further to the right as I feel they can only win from the centre and them going full on braverman will hopefully finish them off for good.
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That's not really how politics works unfortunately and is something Labour are guilty of doing. In a 2 party system, which is effectively what we have, power will swap hands between the two. It always does. It is rarely because the opposition has become more appealing but because people eventually want a change. The 2 parties have a choice of sticking to their guns and waiting for a turn or going after voters on the opposite side and then convincing themselves it was the moving central that achieved it and not just the fact that they were the alternative that people were getting away from. If the Tories went right and stayed right then they'd get in eventually just the same as if they went left. Labour also had a perfect opportunity to go left this election but instead went right and those centrists will now use that as "proof" that you need to go right to win when the reality is they could have fielded a s***y rag on a stick as leader and beat the Tories.

The Tories going further right can only be a bad thing because anyone seeking an alternative to Labour will have a choice between Reform or Tories and if they are both trying to out-extreme each other then it will not be a pleasant place with a large part of the country having to kowtow to the crazies on the far right. That's how USA ended up with Trump. We can see from there that moving further and further right doesn't lose votes, it just legitimises the abhorrent views of the extremists.
 
Nano said:
That's not really how politics works unfortunately and is something Labour are guilty of doing. In a 2 party system, which is effectively what we have, power will swap hands between the two. It always does. It is rarely because the opposition has become more appealing but because people eventually want a change. The 2 parties have a choice of sticking to their guns and waiting for a turn or going after voters on the opposite side and then convincing themselves it was the moving central that achieved it and not just the fact that they were the alternative that people were getting away from. If the Tories went right and stayed right then they'd get in eventually just the same as if they went left. Labour also had a perfect opportunity to go left this election but instead went right and those centrists will now use that as "proof" that you need to go right to win when the reality is they could have fielded a s***y rag on a stick as leader and beat the Tories.

The Tories going further right can only be a bad thing because anyone seeking an alternative to Labour will have a choice between Reform or Tories and if they are both trying to out-extreme each other then it will not be a pleasant place with a large part of the country having to kowtow to the crazies on the far right. That's how USA ended up with Trump. We can see from there that moving further and further right doesn't lose votes, it just legitimises the abhorrent views of the extremists.
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We are seeing a lot of populist, career politicians who, instead of trying to do good, just say what sounds good to get in power.
This woman is horrible and I cannot stand her.
Social media is causing people - I include myself - to hear what they want to hear, in terms of news and political opinion. We are losing balanced views.
The US is a prime example. People ally to certain news outlets and channels that reinforce their own viewpoint. We are getting it here with the likes of GBeebies. We have had newspapers that have drawn their line in the sand for decades.
I watch things on YouTube from the various late shows, Colbert and the like, and I used to wonder how Trump gets votes when there seems to be a lot of left leaning commentary. The problem is that the MAGA nutjobs just aren't watching and they - like a lot of us - are locked in to watching and reading things that agree with how they think.
 
Nano said:
That's not really how politics works unfortunately and is something Labour are guilty of doing. In a 2 party system, which is effectively what we have, power will swap hands between the two. It always does. It is rarely because the opposition has become more appealing but because people eventually want a change. The 2 parties have a choice of sticking to their guns and waiting for a turn or going after voters on the opposite side and then convincing themselves it was the moving central that achieved it and not just the fact that they were the alternative that people were getting away from. If the Tories went right and stayed right then they'd get in eventually just the same as if they went left. Labour also had a perfect opportunity to go left this election but instead went right and those centrists will now use that as "proof" that you need to go right to win when the reality is they could have fielded a s***y rag on a stick as leader and beat the Tories.

The Tories going further right can only be a bad thing because anyone seeking an alternative to Labour will have a choice between Reform or Tories and if they are both trying to out-extreme each other then it will not be a pleasant place with a large part of the country having to kowtow to the crazies on the far right. That's how USA ended up with Trump. We can see from there that moving further and further right doesn't lose votes, it just legitimises the abhorrent views of the extremists.
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I disagree, we ssaw in 2017 and 2019, after the tories had had years in government that just being a different party was not enough to win the elections.

If the tories run on a hate filled platform in 4 or 5 years then I think they lose again, especially if Reform or the next iteration of them is around to split the vote.
 
Colgates_shaving_foam said:
I disagree, we ssaw in 2017 and 2019, after the tories had had years in government that just being a different party was not enough to win the elections.

If the tories run on a hate filled platform in 4 or 5 years then I think they lose again, especially if Reform or the next iteration of them is around to split the vote.
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We all know there were unique situations at those times. 2017 hadn't been a long time for the Tories. They had only very recently won a decent size majority in 2015. The country was largely satisfied wit what they were offering hence the large majority (and it being their first time in sole power because they spent the first 5 years in coalition). 2019 was a single issue election. People were sick of the Tories but they were more sick of there being no end to the Brexit debate and Labour just didn't present a credible solution.

You are probably right that the Tories will lose again but that would be true whatever platform they run on in 5 years time. It's not often a new government only gets a single term. It would have to be Labour shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly like the Tories have done in the last 5 years for there to be the need for a change.
 
There will obviously be a lot tension, giving the huge losses.
With a little bit of luck that will grow to a point when it becomes so factional that it breaks them.
Just watched first day back at school. Farage among the party leaders praising Hoyle on his re-election as speaker. Nuff said.
 
By 2010 Labour had been in power for 13 years and there was a financial crash, yet still the Conservatives, who had previously moved right and further right before appearing to move back to the centre, could not win an outright majority.

It was a narrow victory in 2015, partly driven by incumbency, partly by the Lib-Dems being punished, partly by the promise of an EU referendum but partly also due to Labour seemingly moving to the left. Then further still in 2017 and 2019, though Brexit was a significant complicating other issue.

In 1992 the Tories had been in power for 13 years but Major managed to get re-elected over Kinnock.

It seems difficult to remove incumbents if you are not in the centre as well as time passing.
 
Colgates_shaving_foam said:
I disagree, we ssaw in 2017 and 2019, after the tories had had years in government that just being a different party was not enough to win the elections.

If the tories run on a hate filled platform in 4 or 5 years then I think they lose again, especially if Reform or the next iteration of them is around to split the vote.
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The way I see it - Tories can either:

Get someone who is a hard right lunatic in to win back Reform voters. Result will be more of the same chaos that we have seen for years. Unelectable party divided into various warring factions.
or
Get someone dull / sensible in to win back the centre ground and stop trying to appease the very hard right. Result might be that they take back some Lib Dem and Tory seats, but lose out on other seats to the far right.
 
Nano said:
If the Tories went right and stayed right then they'd get in eventually just the same as if they went left.
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I not sure I agree.

Centrist politics will always appeal to a greater number of voters, but the longer a party tends to be in power, the less moderate it generally becomes. That's what we've seen with the out going government.

In any case her comments are appalling.
 
Nano said:
That's not really how politics works unfortunately and is something Labour are guilty of doing. In a 2 party system, which is effectively what we have, power will swap hands between the two. It always does. It is rarely because the opposition has become more appealing but because people eventually want a change. The 2 parties have a choice of sticking to their guns and waiting for a turn or going after voters on the opposite side and then convincing themselves it was the moving central that achieved it and not just the fact that they were the alternative that people were getting away from. If the Tories went right and stayed right then they'd get in eventually just the same as if they went left. Labour also had a perfect opportunity to go left this election but instead went right and those centrists will now use that as "proof" that you need to go right to win when the reality is they could have fielded a s***y rag on a stick as leader and beat the Tories.

The Tories going further right can only be a bad thing because anyone seeking an alternative to Labour will have a choice between Reform or Tories and if they are both trying to out-extreme each other then it will not be a pleasant place with a large part of the country having to kowtow to the crazies on the far right. That's how USA ended up with Trump. We can see from there that moving further and further right doesn't lose votes, it just legitimises the abhorrent views of the extremists.
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Except this is not USA obviously and we have a centrist party in the Libdems who took seats off cabinet ministers in true blue areas. The general abhorrence for Trump in this country won’t allow a similar type like Braverman or Bad Enoch to seize power. I firmly believe that. If Labour do the right job these far right people will remain on the fringe complaining and shouting and we will challenge and attack their views at every opportunity we can.
 
They are not even bothering to blow the dog whistle anymore. They are more than happy to shout their lunatic "beliefs" form the highest point in order to whip their equally lunatic followers into a frenzy.

Very dangerous indeed.
 
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