Steve Thompson 42 - early onset Dementia

[Steer]

My heart goes out to him. He was an awesome player, at his peak he was one of the very best in the world, and he was a key part of that excellent England team. To read about him suffering like this is awful.

The NFL paid out a similar claim. They paid USD 765m.

No two cases are the same, and the US law system is different to ours, but it proves that it is possible.

 

[bear66]

I love rugby, but it's quite a recent love in the past decade or so. Pre uni I was all about Football & Cricket. Do you think the game as it is now, offers more protection to the players than back then?

A read a thread on reddit about this situation yesterday, and few people said they were now going to stop watching it because of these cases and others have said they are pulling their kids out of the junior game.

It's funny it was only at the weekend I was checking at what age I could put my little one into Rugby Tots, which both me and the mrs have been keen to do, but now we're not so sure.

The rules are much better for scrums and rucks, but the size of players has increased with little extra kit protection. The ability of players to offload, knowing that if the receiver is tackled, they will easily recycle the ball, has led to higher tackles which increases the chance of head injuries. I was told off for tackling above the waist when I was coached!

 

[zzzzz]

The recent strict laws on neck rolls, high tackles and no arm tackles are great to see and imo don't reduce the enjoyment of watching it. Players have had to learn new skills and have adapted well.
Its really difficult because if you go too far the sport becomes so badly affected that it's popularity will wane.
Not sure why headgaurds aren't compulsory now....... can see that coming in shortly.

 

[Malaguena]

Employers have a duty to mitigate risk, do you think a scrum of 16 enormous bloke pushing against each other without any protection is satisfactory?

Well what are you suggesting ? It's the nature of the game and the risks as understood now need to be communicated and understood, and then decisions can be taken going forward based on known facts. You're on dangerous ground taking today's knowledge and applying it 25 years ago.

By all means get rid of the scrum ..... at the same time let's get rid of the flankers and call it Rugby League (which is fine by me by the way - great game)

 

[Same_as_before]

I played at second team level for years, my wife says it explains a lot.

One of the few periods my Saturday was not watching the Boro.

 

[JackG]

Have a look at the graphics and stats in this Guardian article. The changes since the game went professional are truly staggering. It seems it not the big knockout blows which do the damage - it's the repeated trauma or 'sub-concussions' . Here's Alix Popham, ex Wales, another sufferer, on the topic. It's closely linked to the problem in football as described by Bill Gates' wife, Judith.

 

[newusername]

Have a look at the graphics and stats in this Guardian article. The changes since the game went professional are truly staggering. It seems it not the big knockout blows which do the damage - it's the repeated trauma or 'sub-concussions' . Here's Alix Popham, ex Wales, another sufferer, on the topic. It's closely linked to the problem in football as described by Bill Gates' wife, Judith.

The key phrase in the article is "Assuming the incidence rate derived from the 2014 Dementia UK report has remained constant".
Has it?
Was the 2014 Dementia UK report 100% accurate?
What has happened to demographics since then?


In 1995 there were 7.5 tackles per player (113/15), in 2003 there were 8.5 tackles per player (189/22) (and in 2019 there were 11.2 tackles per player (257/23)). Is that such a massive increase in tackles between 1987 & 2003 to result in a massive increase in CTE incidence in rugby players?

Has there even been a massive increase in CTE in rugby players or is it just being diagnosed at an earlier stage and as it is publicised, other ex-players realise they have similar symptoms & get themselves off to the Drs & papers whereas in previous generations they'd suffer in silence?

Don't get me wrong, dementia is f***ing tragic, early onset dementia more so, and employers have a duty of care to protect their employees from harm & not put them repeatedly into risky situations that could result in harm without serious mitigation, and it is right that those suffering with this condition question their treatment during their careers and seek answers but I think it is slighly more complex than some graphs of random stats at WCs & people adding themselves to a class action to throw the whole of a sport down the pan.

 

[JackG]

The key phrase in the article is "Assuming the incidence rate derived from the 2014 Dementia UK report has remained constant".
Has it?
Was the 2014 Dementia UK report 100% accurate?
What has happened to demographics since then?

View attachment 10183
In 1995 there were 7.5 tackles per player (113/15), in 2003 there were 8.5 tackles per player (189/22) (and in 2019 there were 11.2 tackles per player (257/23)). Is that such a massive increase in tackles between 1987 & 2003 to result in a massive increase in CTE incidence in rugby players?

Has there even been a massive increase in CTE in rugby players or is it just being diagnosed at an earlier stage and as it is publicised, other ex-players realise they have similar symptoms & get themselves off to the Drs & papers whereas in previous generations they'd suffer in silence?

Don't get me wrong, dementia is f***ing tragic, early onset dementia more so, and employers have a duty of care to protect their employees from harm & not put them repeatedly into risky situations that could result in harm without serious mitigation, and it is right that those suffering with this condition question their treatment during their careers and seek answers but I think it is slighly more complex than some graphs of random stats at WCs & people adding themselves to a class action to throw the whole of a sport down the pan.

The articles I've read recently seem to be suggesting the move to full-time training might be as much of a factor as increased contact during game time. It's the sheer volume of knocks to the head, as much as the intensity, which has increased. Steve Thompson said he moved from 2 evenings a week to full-time, brutal training with loads of full contact. The trend now is for shorter, sharper more focused sessions but that's no consolations for his generation of players. In football, the Jimenez/Luiz style clash of heads is dramatic but the repeated heading drills in training could be more damaging in the long-term.

 

[Cambsred]

The articles I've read recently seem to be suggesting the move to full-time training might be as much of a factor as increased contact during game time. It's the sheer volume of knocks to the head, as much as the intensity, which has increased. Steve Thompson said he moved from 2 evenings a week to full-time, brutal training with loads of full contact. The trend now is for shorter, sharper more focused sessions but that's no consolations for his generation of players. In football, the Jimenez/Luiz style clash of heads is dramatic but the repeated heading drills in training could be more damaging in the long-term.

I'd never considered the increased training loads to be fair. Especially in the early professional training of both football and rugby I would bet. Frequency of any impact would increase significantly.

I think as training has moved on professionally you may find incidence in football and rugby decreasing as it is less about physical impact and repeated heading. Semi-professional however may be less structured and still follow trend.

 

[MolteniArcore]

I've played every position at some time or other except prop, second row and No 8. Fly half was where I got my most injuries! Mainly tackling rather than being tackled.

I worry about some players that seem to be regularly concussed. Fly halves and full backs seem to be the hardest hit.

I've played every position in the scrum, I struggle to see how you get concussed due to a scrum. Surely it's just tacking that's the problem? Only a thought.

 

[bear66]

I've played every position in the scrum, I struggle to see how you get concussed due to a scrum. Surely it's just tacking that's the problem? Only a thought.

The game has changed a lot since I first played over 60 years ago! Forwards didn't tackle so much in those days; they just ran from set piece to set piece with a bit of support at the breakdown when the backs were tackled. The number of tackles a forward makes in a game now is phenomenal by comparison.

 

[Same_as_before]

The other issue is the number of reserves. In the second half it's like a new team.

 

[JackG]

I've played every position in the scrum, I struggle to see how you get concussed due to a scrum. Surely it's just tacking that's the problem? Only a thought.

Front row scrum engagement was a problem, certainly when Thompson was playing. I think there's quite a bit more head contact at the breakdown now, but that's comparatively recent.

 

[Rishworthian]

Isn't there a legal phrase " volenti non fit injuria" means something about consent to run the risk. It is why boxers cannot sue their opponent for hitting them.

Whilst I'm sympathetic to Thompson I suspect his claim will fail as a result of this doctrine

As usual the only winners are the lawyers

 

[JackG]

Isn't there a legal phrase " volenti non fit injuria" means something about consent to run the risk. It is why boxers cannot sue their opponent for hitting them.

Whilst I'm sympathetic to Thompson I suspect his claim will fail as a result of this doctrine

As usual the only winners are the lawyers

Here's an article summarising some of the legal difficulties facing the claimants. Whatever the outcome of the rugby case, this is a real warning shot for football. If the authorities don't take some action their 'head in the sand' defence won't stand up in future

 

[Rishworthian]

Jack G I think that the modern legal arguments amount to just the same thing ( I did read the Guardian article, thank you) The legal challenges are probably insurmountable

In the future that may not be the case as they can now argue that "they knew or ought to have known"

You have to respect Matt Dawson who has said I'm not brilliant but I consented to run the risk