Steffen

[18MFC76]

They do indeed - and defending teams always have another man blocking that attacker - that's where the fault lies, because we didn't

It's a fair point that. Why are people so defensive over Steffen? . I don't think anyone on here has said he's a bad goalkeeper. Jesus Christ after a year of Bettinelli and then Lumley, Steffen feels like having Schmeichel in his prime. I agree his distribution is of key importance to the way we play. On that incident however his timing of the shove is wrong. He's not even watching the ball which should always be where the keeper is looking given it's his job to keep it out of the net. That doesn't mean he's a bad goalkeeper and other people are definitely more at fault. Like Midlands said, I'm sure if Steffen watched that back he wouldn't think. Yes, I would do that again.

 

[Muttley]

Choosing a single frame from a video is for me problematic. Yes at that moment it looks like Steffen is concentrating on pushing the Hull player. I consider that hair splitting. One for the coaching team to look at perhaps, a valid criticism, no.

For one it is a dynamic situation, the corner is designed to fool the defence and one of the things that they are trying to achieve to overload or distract Steffen. Secondly it ignores the very obvious error from whoever has lost the goalscorer and allowed him a free header (that has a far greater consequence in the whole play). Thirdly, the Hull player has probably got away with a foul on Steffen as the ball is played. Another minor consideration is the positioning of Giles at the back post.

As an aside, I wish that we could come up with some sort of threatening or dangerous corner routine. I watch our corners with a mild disinterest as we are completely ineffectual from dead balls in general and corners in particular. We tried a short corner last night, it was just as shight as our usual limp looped ball dropped into the six yard box as catching practise for their keeper. We did have one decent corner late on taken by Barlaser which was delivered with pace and whip. Grrrr.

 

[sherlock]

I don't think anyone on here has said he's a bad goalkeeper

Are you new?!

 

[BoroMart]

The guy hasn’t played consistently for some time so there was bound to be some rustiness to start with. But keepers more than ever need to be playing every game to link up with the defence and we have that now, we have had it for a while.

People need to get used to what we do as a team, by bringing the ball out. He’s following instructions after all. What he does is integral to the way we play, and he made a couple of good stops last night. He’s quality.

absolutely this.

He has better passing technique and vision than many defensive midfielders I can think of in a Boro shirt. Could Nick Bailey, Kevin Thomson or Mo Shawky have spotted the run and executed that precision pass? I don't think so.

 

[BoroMart]

No I agree but Ive seen free kicks given for what the Hull player was doing in trying to block Steffen with no eyes on the ball. And I wouldn't let it cloud what was otherwise another solid performance

agreed, but we should be better organised, you counter this by putting a defender between their player and the keeper to protect him, but we didn't do that.

 

[MidlandsBoroFan]

Choosing a single frame from a video is for me problematic. Yes at that moment it looks like Steffen is concentrating on pushing the Hull player. I consider that hair splitting. One for the coaching team to look at perhaps, a valid criticism, no.

For one it is a dynamic situation, the corner is designed to fool the defence and one of the things that they are trying to achieve to overload or distract Steffen. Secondly it ignores the very obvious error from whoever has lost the goalscorer and allowed him a free header (that has a far greater consequence in the whole play). Thirdly, the Hull player has probably got away with a foul on Steffen as the ball is played. Another minor consideration is the positioning of Giles at the back post.

As an aside, I wish that we could come up with some sort of threatening or dangerous corner routine. I watch our corners with a mild disinterest as we are completely ineffectual from dead balls in general and corners in particular. We tried a short corner last night, it was just as shight as our usual limp looped ball dropped into the six yard box as catching practise for their keeper. We did have one decent corner late on taken by Barlaser which was delivered with pace and whip. Grrrr.

Spot on.

There probably have been a couple of occasions where we’ve scored with a header from a corner this season, but I can’t remember them.

I don’t get vaguely excited when we have a corner.

 

[BoroMart]

Have to disagree. The least I expect from a keeper at a corner is to concentrate and be ready to make a save. Whether he would have made the save is a different issue.

People aren’t criticising him because it was an excellent header into the far corner and the defending was shocking. Both good points. If it had been a soft header straight at him and it had gone in, people would be saying it was a mistake. My point is that I’m not sure he’d have saved a soft header because he was concentrating too much on the man next to him.

This is just after the header (from 8 yards). He’s still pushing the man and is in no position to make a save. Poor concentration for me, whether he’d have saved the header or not.

Actually where he’s standing, the header wouldn’t have been far away from him. He just wasn’t ready.
View attachment 56468

goalkeepers have to cover the near post in a corner situation, he's clearing and bossing his area,of the header goes near post which a flush header will, and he hasn't created room for himself by pushing the player out the way, then he doesn't save it there. Until the moment of the header nobody has any idea where the ball will go. So I'll stick with the maybe 'minor alterations' to Steffen's involvement, but the crux of this is don't give a free header 8 yards out, and don't wander off the back post, you are protecting it

 

[18MFC76]

Are you new?!

I was referring to this thread not the board as a whole.

 

[Andy_W]

That's about right, I think. It has taken Steffen longer to adapt to the Championship than I expected but he has, by and large, got there over the last month. He's still capable of getting mugged though. Opposition players seem to have noted that he can be hassled. It's pretty basic stuff; stick someone on the keeper and try to hassle them as much as you can get away with. We need to either task someone to defend Steffen or Steffen has to get much smarter at dealing with this.

Giles is also at fault for wandering off the back post and Akpom has let the scorer go. Akpom's probably zonally defending that area rather than going with the man. I suspect that Hull's coaches have seen him do that in the past and played for it. Our best header of the ball, Lenihan, is left marking no one. Again, I think Hull have looked at previous matches and tried to stay away from Lenihan.

So mostly this is Hull spotting our weaknesses and exploiting them really well. We, of course, are going to have to stop Luton doing this to us because that really is their strength.

When I watched again Giles wasn't actually post man, he was meant to be marking the guy who ended up getting in Steffens way, quite smart by their player to be honest, and obviously pre-planned. Once this had happened Giles didn't really have a right choice, either go and move the man near Steffen (but it would have been too late anyway), stick on or go to the post which he's probably not meant to do (coached to get out), go and mark the free man at the back post, or just get out for the possible offside. He ended up doing none of them (other than the possible offside), but hard to pin blame on that. If there's any blame it's in losing the man, but he can't exactly grab hold of him etc.

I think Lenihan was partially covering space, but it was a space a ball didn't go it.

We seem to play a partial man mark and partial zonal mark, but they just worked it well and got through, it's gonna happen, it happens to every team lots of times.

 

[MidlandsBoroFan]

goalkeepers have to cover the near post in a corner situation, he's clearing and bossing his area,of the header goes near post which a flush header will, and he hasn't created room for himself by pushing the player out the way, then he doesn't save it there. Until the moment of the header nobody has any idea where the ball will go. So I'll stick with the maybe 'minor alterations' to Steffen's involvement, but the crux of this is don't give a free header 8 yards out, and don't wander off the back post, you are protecting it

Tough one for him given how many poor mistakes were made by everyone else around him, who were much more to blame, but I still think that he will think he could have done better.

 

[BoroMart]

I think Lenihan was partially covering space, but it was a space a ball didn't go it.

players score goals not spaces. You have to mark up

We seem to play a partial man mark and partial zonal mark, but they just worked it well and got through, it's gonna happen, it happens to every team lots of times.

We had 6 players around the penalty spot marking 3 Hull players and they got a free header. Whatever division we are in next year, we need a higher quality defender who can organise, a modern day Pearson

 

[Andy_W]

Choosing a single frame from a video is for me problematic. Yes at that moment it looks like Steffen is concentrating on pushing the Hull player. I consider that hair splitting. One for the coaching team to look at perhaps, a valid criticism, no.

For one it is a dynamic situation, the corner is designed to fool the defence and one of the things that they are trying to achieve to overload or distract Steffen. Secondly it ignores the very obvious error from whoever has lost the goalscorer and allowed him a free header (that has a far greater consequence in the whole play). Thirdly, the Hull player has probably got away with a foul on Steffen as the ball is played. Another minor consideration is the positioning of Giles at the back post.

As an aside, I wish that we could come up with some sort of threatening or dangerous corner routine. I watch our corners with a mild disinterest as we are completely ineffectual from dead balls in general and corners in particular. We tried a short corner last night, it was just as shight as our usual limp looped ball dropped into the six yard box as catching practise for their keeper. We did have one decent corner late on taken by Barlaser which was delivered with pace and whip. Grrrr.

Yup, good analysis.

As for the corners, we don't have much of a threat on corners though, as we're not a particularly good side in the air, and don't really have any big strong players in the front 4.

A corner isn't really a benefit to us, like it is with most teams, we're not a side well suited to a congested box, and having to force a high ball in there. The counter to this is that where we lose on corners, we gain much more in open play. It would probably suit us better playing back to the half way line and trying to drag some of their players out, as daft as this sounds.

 

[Andy_W]

players score goals not spaces. You have to mark up


We had 6 players around the penalty spot marking 3 Hull players and they got a free header. Whatever division we are in next year, we need a higher quality defender who can organise, a modern day Pearson

Yup, but if you cover the right spaces, you remove most of the threat for that specific area. It's why the near post man cuts out 50% of corners, but is never marking anyone.

It's just the pro's and cons of zonal or man marking, or a mix which is what we seem to do, and what most teams do.

Man marking isn't always easy though, as defenders are second-guessing, and the attacker knows what's coming and gets the run at the ball, to attack it, which is easier.

Was just a good set piece, which had the stars align, roll that again another 10 times, and 9/10 the cross doesn't hit that area with accuracy, the striker gets blocked, it doesn't hit the target, or our defender blocks the guy going after Steffen.

Yup, players who can play out (which is necessary in our team) and who are also unreal defenders cost over £50m though.

 

[BoroMart]

Yup, but if you cover the right spaces, you remove most of the threat for that specific area. It's why the near post man cuts out 50% of corners, but is never marking anyone.

It's just the pro's and cons of zonal or man marking, or a mix which is what we seem to do, and what most teams do.

Man marking isn't always easy though, as defenders are second-guessing, and the attacker knows what's coming and gets the run at the ball, to attack it, which is easier.

Was just a good set piece, which had the stars align, roll that again another 10 times, and 9/10 the cross doesn't hit that area with accuracy, the striker gets blocked, it doesn't hit the target, or our defender blocks the guy going after Steffen.

I'd say it was a good set piece, but our defensive performance in that moment was a shambles. his run could easily have been blocked and should have been, we had 3 extra men, marking nobody.

 

[Andy_W]

I'd say it was a good set piece, but our defensive performance in that moment was a shambles. his run could easily have been blocked and should have been, we had 3 extra men, marking nobody.

Yeah, it wasn't great.

It was 4 v 6 though, but Archer was wrong side, meaning it basically started as a 4v5, three went to goal, and the scorer ran a long way to the near post/ cover of 6 yard box.

McNair, the player not marking, who was holding the zonal space for that area (or meant to atatcke that) tried to get out, but it was too far away, hard to blame him for that, too much area to cover. Forss was there to block near post, so he didn't really do anything wrong.

There was a very big gap in that area though, probably a 5 yard radius, which is a massive area of the box, but I'm not sure if we leave that gap all the time?

 

[MVBoro]

As someone mentioned above, will have to watch out for this against Luton. Steffen naturally doesn't like people around him, you often see him trying to clear the space in front of him and from the stills, you can see it affected his concentration. Obviously, he wouldn't have made the save, so no real harm here. His passing is still spot on. You could compare him to Darlow in this regard (who many wanted here), and Steffen was far superior. You can imagine the reaction to some of the passes Darlow made that really put them under pressure. His shot stopping wasn't great either. Steffen is definitely as asset for us and key to our play.

 

[Laughing]

Lot of analysis on this thread. A couple of comments from me. Zonal marking is crap and only works with exceptionally well drilled players. The opposition don't have to do anything special to find space.

Secondly, people think Steffan was to blame? Wtaf. I also had someone say to me on the match thread that mcnair was to blame.

Anyway that is my in depth, expert, well thought out and exceptionally articulated point of view.

 

[truck]

The guy hasn’t played consistently for some time so there was bound to be some rustiness to start with. But keepers more than ever need to be playing every game to link up with the defence and we have that now, we have had it for a while.

People need to get used to what we do as a team, by bringing the ball out. He’s following instructions after all. What he does is integral to the way we play, and he made a couple of good stops last night. He’s quality.

spot on, his holding the ball waiting to find a player to kick to is part of drawing their players upfield and towards him allowing a bit more space for our players.

 

[BoroMart]

spot on, his holding the ball waiting to find a player to kick to is part of drawing their players upfield and towards him allowing a bit more space for our players.

We also have 11 capabpe
Outfield players on the pitch, the opposition usually at this level have 10, it’s a big advantage