So Compulsory Vaccinations are Happening Then…..

My 10 pence worth.

In the depths of the pandemic when this idea was first touted I WAS very much in favour of mandatory vaccinations for NHS staff.

BUT

I think now the ship has sailed. We are being told that the peak is over, Covid is now endemic in the UK and on Thursday effectively we are going back to pre-March 2020 in terms of restrictions. How we can then sack staff for not getting the vaccine is a bit crazy.


The Government need to improve hospitals, not sack the staff. Wards need to be made smaller, more individual rooms, better ventilation, correct PPE etc. Things spread in hospitals as things stand already, it needs solving.

On a personal note I do think all NHS workers should be vaccinated, I struggle to see why they won't get the vaccine and I can see the arguments for mandatory jabs but I don't think it's workable now.
 
MolteniArcore said:
e are being told that the peak is over, Covid is now endemic in the UK and on Thursday effectively we are going back to pre-March 2020 in terms of restrictions. How we can then sack staff for not getting the vaccine is a bit crazy.
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This is the key sentence for me. We are now ignoring the science and any pretence that we are following it has long gone. We have also put ourselves in the position of having a woefully resourced NHS with Brexit exacerbating that problem as EU workers leave in their droves. To be honest, the moral question as to whether mandatory vaccination is appropriate has long since passed you're right. There is no moral ground upon which to impose it or any other restrictions now.
 
Adi_Dem said:
Why? Both anecdotal, both unreliable as evidence of any sort of consensus or majority. For example, I know several senior people across the north east trusts and the reality in those trusts is that the number of workers supporting it is in the low 90% figures. Again, anecdotal but much more valuable than a 100k protest that Matt le Tissier attended.


This isn't correct:

- Hep B is mandatory along with an immunity test;
- No vaccination is 100% effective for any disease e.g. measles is around 93% for one does, 97% for two doses;
- No vaccine completely eradicates any disease e.g. measles still exists and pockets breakout every now and then;
- The COVID vaccinations reduce transmission and reduce your chances of infection;
- None of the other vaccines relate to a currently pandemic disease.



That's fine. No problem to hold that view. But it is just as anecdotal as any other source provided on this thread, especially the argument put forward that the 100k protest is evidence of anything.
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OK I have a bit of time Adi.

It is a fact that no vaccine is 100% effective, that's not what I was saying. I was saying vaccines don't have to be 100% effective to eradicate the diseases that they cause. Covid is so ineffective it has absolutely no chance, nor is it the goal to use it to eradicate covid. The goal was only ever to protect as many people as possible. If you can't eradicate it what is the end goal here?

Now to how ineffective the vaccine actually is at stopping someone catching it and transmitting it. Claims were made this month as to the efficacy of the current covid vaccinations against omicron. The study suggested that it is 70% effective at stopping someone catching covid, assuming they had had the booster: here https://www.healthline.com/health-news/by-the-numbers-covid-19-vaccines-and-omicron

I am going to argue against that, even though it is derived from a scientific paper. I actually think it is complete nonsense. Figures do bear this out. All figures are for the BNT162 booster as I couldn't find numbers for the Mra booster beyond 4-5 weeks. The booster shot for omicron is found to be just 60% effective at stopping symptomatic disease. That is at its best. After 10 weeks it drops of to 40%. None of these figures support a 70% effective at stopping you catching it nor transmitting it.

Looking solely at infection rates, the report says insufficient data, but one would have to assume it's less effective than the 40% we currently enjoy as a protection from symptomatic disease, after all you have to catch it to become symptomatic. The booster is tending to zero, page 5 of the report. It does say 10+ weeks. Hmmmm does it remain at 40% effective at stopping symptomatic covid? I don't know but either way, if less than 50% of people show symptoms, there is your 20% effective. And as I say tending towards zero.
Report : https://assets.publishing.service.g...0/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-3-2022.pdf

To hep B. about 10% of people are unresponsive to the vaccine and they are tested for immunity. If they have none, they aint fired, they have preventative measure put in place to protect them. They are not fired. So whilst hep B is a mandatory vaccination it isn't a get it or get fired.

And finally, to the anecdotal evidence that the majority of NHS staff don't support mandated vaccination. The GMC ethical guidance on decision making and consent has 7 principles and principle 5 strictly forbades giving any treatment to a patient who decides not to have the treatment, unless they do not have the mental capacity to decide for themselves. The fact that the GMC have this as a principle, it's probably fair to say that mandated vaccinations for NHS staff are viewed with some suspicion. The BMA have called out quite clearly it's take on this in it's capacity as a representative of the medical profession. The GMC's principles on decision making can be found here : https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/docu...n-making-and-consent-english_pdf-84191055.pdf

It may well be that those demonstrating against mandated vaccinations were comprised primarily of unvaccinated workers and their supporters. I find that quit difficult to believe and the BMA's position on this supports my viewpoint.

I am sure you will have plenty to say Adi, but we have footie tonight, a game that I think we all agree may well define where we are heading this season. It shouldn't but I think we all feel that in our bones. If you are going, enjoy the night. I will be watching on TV down the pub but their in heart and mind.
 
MolteniArcore said:
My 10 pence worth.

In the depths of the pandemic when this idea was first touted I WAS very much in favour of mandatory vaccinations for NHS staff.

BUT

I think now the ship has sailed. We are being told that the peak is over, Covid is now endemic in the UK and on Thursday effectively we are going back to pre-March 2020 in terms of restrictions. How we can then sack staff for not getting the vaccine is a bit crazy.


The Government need to improve hospitals, not sack the staff. Wards need to be made smaller, more individual rooms, better ventilation, correct PPE etc. Things spread in hospitals as things stand already, it needs solving.

On a personal note I do think all NHS workers should be vaccinated, I struggle to see why they won't get the vaccine and I can see the arguments for mandatory jabs but I don't think it's workable now.
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I agree with this in principle Molteni. It's dissappointing that some doctors and nurses don't want to be vaccinated, but it is becoming beside the point.
 
Laughing said:
OK I have a bit of time Adi.

It is a fact that no vaccine is 100% effective, that's not what I was saying. I was saying vaccines don't have to be 100% effective to eradicate the diseases that they cause. Covid is so ineffective it has absolutely no chance, nor is it the goal to use it to eradicate covid. The goal was only ever to protect as many people as possible. If you can't eradicate it what is the end goal here?

Now to how ineffective the vaccine actually is at stopping someone catching it and transmitting it. Claims were made this month as to the efficacy of the current covid vaccinations against omicron. The study suggested that it is 70% effective at stopping someone catching covid, assuming they had had the booster: here https://www.healthline.com/health-news/by-the-numbers-covid-19-vaccines-and-omicron

I am going to argue against that, even though it is derived from a scientific paper. I actually think it is complete nonsense. Figures do bear this out. All figures are for the BNT162 booster as I couldn't find numbers for the Mra booster beyond 4-5 weeks. The booster shot for omicron is found to be just 60% effective at stopping symptomatic disease. That is at its best. After 10 weeks it drops of to 40%. None of these figures support a 70% effective at stopping you catching it nor transmitting it.

Looking solely at infection rates, the report says insufficient data, but one would have to assume it's less effective than the 40% we currently enjoy as a protection from symptomatic disease, after all you have to catch it to become symptomatic. The booster is tending to zero, page 5 of the report. It does say 10+ weeks. Hmmmm does it remain at 40% effective at stopping symptomatic covid? I don't know but either way, if less than 50% of people show symptoms, there is your 20% effective. And as I say tending towards zero.
Report : https://assets.publishing.service.g...0/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-3-2022.pdf

To hep B. about 10% of people are unresponsive to the vaccine and they are tested for immunity. If they have none, they aint fired, they have preventative measure put in place to protect them. They are not fired. So whilst hep B is a mandatory vaccination it isn't a get it or get fired.

And finally, to the anecdotal evidence that the majority of NHS staff don't support mandated vaccination. The GMC ethical guidance on decision making and consent has 7 principles and principle 5 strictly forbades giving any treatment to a patient who decides not to have the treatment, unless they do not have the mental capacity to decide for themselves. The fact that the GMC have this as a principle, it's probably fair to say that mandated vaccinations for NHS staff are viewed with some suspicion. The BMA have called out quite clearly it's take on this in it's capacity as a representative of the medical profession. The GMC's principles on decision making can be found here : https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/docu...n-making-and-consent-english_pdf-84191055.pdf

It may well be that those demonstrating against mandated vaccinations were comprised primarily of unvaccinated workers and their supporters. I find that quit difficult to believe and the BMA's position on this supports my viewpoint.

I am sure you will have plenty to say Adi, but we have footie tonight, a game that I think we all agree may well define where we are heading this season. It shouldn't but I think we all feel that in our bones. If you are going, enjoy the night. I will be watching on TV down the pub but their in heart and mind.
Click to expand...

Yes, I have lots to say as you might imagine. But I have to drive now and tbh I can't be arsed. Let's just agree to disagree. Have a good en.
 
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