SAGE Failings

Randy

Well-known member
https://lockdownsceptics.org/what-sage-got-wrong/

I follow Dr Mike Yeadon on Twitter and have done for a while now. He posted last night he was releasing an article on what the untouchable SAGE committee had got wrong and here it is.
This isn't tin foil hat stuff, the man knows what he's talking about. Worth a read definitely.
@T_A_D I think this article will interest you greatly.
 
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https://lockdownsceptics.org/what-sage-got-wrong/

I follow Dr Mike Yeadon on Twitter and have done for a while now. He posted last night he was releasing an article on what the untouchable SAGE committee had for wrong and here it is.
This isn't tin foil hat stuff, the man knows what he's talking about. Worth a read definitely.
@T_A_D I think this article will interest you greatly.
I wouldn't say anyone is claiming SAGE is untouchable, but the idea that someone outside of that group has greater knowledge without any hard evidence of such is not true. The virility of the virus, how it has swept through populations rapidly and that it is indeed a novel virus means that exist immunity is almost certainly negligible, to my understanding. The idea that 28% of the population have already had this and the pandemic is over is far, far too early to claim, and the fact that infection numbers are rising, in spite of controls is evidence contrary to his conclusion.

I'll read the whole article when I have time, but he seems to be jumping the gun a little. It is arguable that SAGE are erring on the side of caution, but that is their job, to save lives. Come April we will have a greater understanding of where we are, after the winter rise in cases
 
I too have followed yardley Yeadon throughout.
He’s a very angry, shouty chap on Twitter, isn’t he?
1000s of tweets lately.....
Of course that doesn’t mean he’s wrong.
He’s very very sure of himself.
Time will tell.
 
https://lockdownsceptics.org/what-sage-got-wrong/

I follow Dr Mike Yeadon on Twitter and have done for a while now. He posted last night he was releasing an article on what the untouchable SAGE committee had got wrong and here it is.
This isn't tin foil hat stuff, the man knows what he's talking about. Worth a read definitely.
@T_A_D I think this article will interest you greatly.

Hey Randy, as a fellow conspiracy theorist, what are your thoughts on the John Snow Memorandum?
It’s got over 2000 vetted, legitimate scientists, researchers and healthcare professionals signed up to it now.
Yet it hasn’t made any of the mainstream news. At all.
I don’t understand why the GBD with its 1000s of fake and unvetted signatories makes headline news around the world and all over social media, despite having no scientific substance to it, yet this paper in response doesn’t even get a mention?
Thoughts?
 
Hey Randy, as a fellow conspiracy theorist, what are your thoughts on the John Snow Memorandum?
It’s got over 2000 vetted, legitimate scientists, researchers and healthcare professionals signed up to it now.
Yet it hasn’t made any of the mainstream news. At all.
I don’t understand why the GBD with its 1000s of fake and unvetted signatories makes headline news around the world and all over social media, despite having no scientific substance to it, yet this paper in response doesn’t even get a mention?
Thoughts?
No idea. First I've heard of it just now. Having a read through it they also don't have any strategy either other than locking everything down from a quick skim through.
The use of the term 'near-normal' is an odd thing to say though. Why not normal? What is near normal?
 
No idea. First I've heard of it just now. Having a read through it they also don't have any strategy either other than locking everything down from a quick skim through.
The use of the term 'near-normal' is an odd thing to say though. Why not normal? What is near normal?

What is normal?
 
Ok, so we’re supposed to accept this guy’s ‘scientific’ analysis, even though it contains very few references to primary research or source material (and even then, only ones which support his claims), nor any statistical analysis to show things like confidence intervals in his calculations (although I get the impression he has 100% confidence in himself)?

He criticises the academics on SAGE but then produces a paper in response that has zero academic rigour to it. Most of his assertions appear to be based on statements such as “everybody knows that...” rather than pointing to an actual study or piece of research that backs up any of his claims. He dismisses mathematical modellers on the basis that he had a chat to some once and wasn’t impressed!

On to his central assertions. Yeadon claims that SAGE are wrong to assume that the population has little pre-existing immunity to Covid. This is on the basis that “everybody knows” that there is no such thing as a novel virus and that, for Covid, exposure to viruses such as SARS, MERS and even the common cold will give humans some form of immunity.

Now, for SARS and MERS I can see some logic to that argument, as Covid is a SARS type virus. It may help partly explain why Far East countries appear to be fairing better than Europe or the Americas.

However, to the best of my knowledge, I’m not aware that either of those diseases ever reached the UK. Even if a few people who had been to Asia or the Middle East during those epidemics did have some exposure to them, I doubt that the numbers in the UK would be particularly high (in fact, I think we can safely assume they’re very small).

That leaves us with the common cold argument. In fairness, he narrows this down to those colds caused by coronaviruses.

Yeadon states that it is his “belief” that previous exposure to these viruses will provide an immune response to Covid, but presents zero evidence to back up that claim. He also states that this view is shared by “multiple top quality research groups around the world”, but fails to reference any of them. He also fails to answer, or even consider, the obvious question - if having had the common cold provides some level of immunity to Covid, then how come it doesn’t even provide immunity to the common cold?

His second assertion is that the reliance on antibody testing has under-estimated the number of people in the UK who have been exposed to Covid already. This is estimated by SAGE to be around 7% of the population based on serology results, leaving the other 93% vulnerable to the virus.

Yeadon disagrees with this estimate, preferring to use the infection fatality rate (IFR) of the disease to work back from the number who have died and calculate the total number of the population who have therefore been exposed (surely this is a form of mathematical modelling?). Anyway, many of you will be aware that the IFR for Covid is a controversial subject, with a great many estimates from primary research which cover an extensive range of possibilities.

Yeadon, however, has no problem in identifying the ‘correct’ answer, as he chooses to use the calculation by John Ioannadis (who he describes as “the person who is pre-eminent in this field”), without the need to bother himself with any of the other possibilities. Now, words I’ve heard to describe John Ioannidis include ‘controversial’ and ‘maverick’, but I’ve never heard him described as pre-eminent before.

Of course, the IFR calculated by Ioannidis (0.2%) just happens to be the smallest out of the range of possibilities from studies across the globe. The World Health Organisation estimates the IFR to be in the range 0.5-1.0%, whilst the most recent systemic review of IFR studies concludes it is 0.68%.

Using the 0.2% figure, Yeadon estimates that 28% of the UK population has already been exposed to Covid and is therefore immune. The epidemic, he therefore claims, is over. Hurrah!

Had he used the 0.5, 0.68 or 1.0% estimates for IFR, the proportion of the UK population exposed would be 11.2%, 8.2% or 5.6% respectively. Note that the 0.68% IFR estimate results in a level of exposure similar to that suggested by SAGE. However, we obviously need not concern ourselves with this, as Yeadon doesn’t even bother mentioning them as possibilities.

Finally, of course, there is his claim that, if 28% of the population has already been exposed to Covid, it necessarily follows that the epidemic is over. He provides no evidence or academic references to back up this assertion, despite it falling considerably short of the 60-70% figure often quoted to obtain herd immunity. He also fails to consider whether exposure necessarily leads to immunity and/or whether such immunity might be transient.

Other than that, a solid piece of work that adds greatly to our knowledge of this virus!
 
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Meant to add, if we are supposed to accept that 7% of the general population with antibodies equates to 28% who have been exposed to the virus, and that 28% level of exposure means the epidemic is over, then how come the virus is still spreading and growing in London?

The capital was the worst affected city in the first wave and serology surveys estimate that in excess of 10% of the capital’s population has developed antibodies. Therefore, if the epidemic is over anywhere in the country, then surely that must be London?

But it isn’t over there, it’s growing...
 
Ok, so we’re supposed to accept this guy’s ‘scientific’ analysis, even though it contains very few references to primary research or source material (and even then, only ones which support his claims), nor any statistical analysis to show things like confidence intervals in his calculations (although I get the impression he has 100% confidence in himself)?

He criticises the academics on SAGE but then produces a paper in response that has zero academic rigour to it. Most of his assertions appear to be based on statements such as “everybody knows that...” rather than pointing to an actual study or piece of research that backs up any of his claims. He dismisses mathematical modellers on the basis that he had a chat to some once and wasn’t impressed!

On to his central assertions. Yeadon claims that SAGE are wrong to assume that the population has little pre-existing immunity to Covid. This is on the basis that “everybody knows” that there is no such thing as a novel virus and that, for Covid, exposure to viruses such as SARS, MERS and even the common cold will give humans some form of immunity.

Now, for SARS and MERS I can see some logic to that argument, as Covid is a SARS type virus. It may help partly explain why Far East countries appear to be fairing better than Europe or the Americas.

However, to the best of my knowledge, I’m not aware that either of those diseases ever reached the UK. Even if a few people who had been to Asia or the Middle East during those epidemics did have some exposure to them, I doubt that the numbers in the UK would be particularly high (in fact, I think we can safely assume they’re very small).

That leaves us with the common cold argument. In fairness, he narrows this down to those colds caused by coronaviruses.

Yeadon states that it is his “belief” that previous exposure to these viruses will provide an immune response to Covid, but presents zero evidence to back up that claim. He also states that this view is shared by “multiple top quality research groups around the world”, but fails to reference any of them. He also fails to answer, or even consider, the obvious question - if having had the common cold provides some level of immunity to Covid, then how come it doesn’t even provide immunity to the common cold?

His second assertion is that the reliance on antibody testing has under-estimated the number of people in the UK who have been exposed to Covid already. This is estimated by SAGE to be around 7% of the population based on serology results, leaving the other 93% vulnerable to the virus.

Yeadon disagrees with this estimate, preferring to use the infection fatality rate (IFR) of the disease to work back from the number who have died and calculate the total number of the population who have therefore been exposed (surely this is a form of mathematical modelling?). Anyway, many of you will be aware that the IFR for Covid is a controversial subject, with a great many estimates from primary research which cover an extensive range of possibilities.

Yeadon, however, has no problem in identifying the ‘correct’ answer, as he chooses to use the calculation by John Ioannadis (who he describes as “the person who is pre-eminent in this field”), without the need to bother himself with any of the other possibilities. Now, words I’ve heard to describe John Ioannidis include ‘controversial’ and ‘maverick’, but I’ve never heard him described as pre-eminent before.

Of course, the IFR calculated by Ioannidis (0.2%) just happens to be the smallest out of the range of possibilities from studies across the globe. The World Health Organisation estimates the IFR to be in the range 0.5-1.0%, whilst the most recent systemic review of IFR studies concludes it is 0.68%.

Using the 0.2% figure, Yeadon estimates that 28% of the UK population has already been exposed to Covid and is therefore immune. The epidemic, he therefore claims, is over. Hurrah!

Had he used the 0.5, 0.68 or 1.0% estimates for IFR, the proportion of the UK population exposed would be 11.2%, 8.2% or 5.6% respectively. Note that the 0.68% IFR estimate results in a level of exposure similar to that suggested by SAGE. However, we obviously need not concern ourselves with this, as Yeadon doesn’t even bother mentioning them as possibilities.

Finally, of course, there is his claim that, if 28% of the population has already been exposed to Covid, it necessarily follows that the epidemic is over. He provides no evidence or academic references to back up this assertion, despite it falling considerably short of the 60-70% figure often quoted to obtain herd immunity. He also fails to consider whether exposure necessarily leads to immunity and/or whether such immunity might be transient.

Other than that, a solid piece of work that adds greatly to our knowledge of this virus!
The Ioannidis paper suggests the UK IFR is over 1% which is supported by antibody sereology data and UK covid-19 deaths. He also has an IFR for England at 0.27% (0.22% corrected) for under 70s.
 
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Slightly unrelated but whilst doing my weekly browse of Reuters earlier I came across this.

https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2701FG?il=0&__twitter_impression=true

Are warrants for searches in France given out the same way they are this country?

Couple of thoughts to add to the debate
From Mid May to Oct 3rd (which is the latest update) excess deaths virtually in line with the 5 year average. The last couple of weeks did tick up by circa 5% (500 deaths).

According to other data - flu has not registered as a killer around the world - unusual

Some data from Ireland - up to August 27000 cases and 442 iICU
Up to October 45000 cases and 504 in ICU
An extra 18000 cases and 62 more in ICU

And this graph (be careful with the scale)
 

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It is truly staggering that people have been taken in by this. I know of very educated people who take at face value the propaganda being pumped out of the BBC, truly scary.

We are supposed to believe Manchester is at tipping point and yet the daily cases per 100,000 are trending downwards and are less than 80 cases per hundred thousand?

1602870075179.png

Liverpool the same

1602870769406.png

Nottingham.......

1602871630565.png

Sheffield........

1602872168009.png

There is no exponential rise, rates are falling in a lot of places as was predicted, small self limiting outbreaks and the graphs above show it. We are to believe that we have a susceptibility of ~90% yet only (and I do not mean that flippantly) 43,429 deaths. If 90% susceptible we'd have had hundreds of thousands of deaths in March.

Do people really think these numbers stack up to the headlines?

Something is very amiss and I can't work out whether it is just a wholly incompetent SAGE (desperately trying to hype things up, get a 'lockdown', and try to save face) which the government is following to the letter or whether both the government and SAGE are involved in something much more sinister.

I do know that peoples livelihoods are being ruined, the elderly have been cut off from communities, the arts scene has been ripped to shreads, sport is in tatters. Peoples freedoms are being chipped away at. Seriously worrying times.
 
Let’s hope those figures continue falling and you are proved correct by actual events.
I genuinely want nothing more than Yeadon et al to be proven right, and the numbers to drop and this rise throughout most of Europe to be indicative of geographical pockets of unexposed population catching up with the rest of the places that the virus has already swept through, because that will obviously mean far less deaths and a closer move back to a normal reality.
But it’s not just SAGE, it seems to be all scientific advisory groups saying the same things, throughout the world.
I guess it’s easy to sit on the sidelines and look at the data, such a Yeadon is doing, in the knowledge that if you are right, you can say ‘told you so’. But when you are the people advising, in the thick of it, you are doing so in the knowledge that your mistakes could lead to significant death, you are probably always going to err on the side of caution, call for locking down and using every weapon in your arsenal (or what you think is a weapon, no matter whether it’s effective or not) to slow the spread, hospitalisations etc rather than wait and see if it plays out how those like Yeadon predict.
 
And we have a former health secretary asking Hancock how is progress on getting testing numbers up to test the whole population. Seriously nuts.

And open talk of mass vaccinations. Bonkers. I'm not an anti-vaxxer, they're great and if this virus persisted at low levels then a vaccine would be useful for those at risk, but not for a healthy population.

SAGE members talking of "circuit breakers" - meaningless. They don't work. When a seasonal virus is endemic it passes through population in a very well defined manner, see below for a short explanation video:


Yet we have SAGE members suggesting we can have "circuit breakers" timed around school holidays to keep infection levels low and bide time for a vaccine. This is butchering FUNDAMENTAL SCIENCE. You can't push back the virus by lockdowns, there is no basis.
 
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