Russia/Ukraine

[Hap]

Hap I apologise if I was too forthright. One tends to get worked up on certain issues. I don't have a deep dislike of Western governments per se. I dislike many of ways certain western governments behave. It tends to go hand in hand with power. The sins of the British Empire are now being committed by the US Empire. You don't know me well enough to say that I am not being balanced. I read very widely from all corners of the political spectrum. I start every day with the MSM in the form of The Guardian, The Independent and for my sins, The Telegraph (a dystopian parallel universe). I then read the independent media including such sites as Media Lens, Consortium News, Counterpunch, Democracy Now, The Duran, Moon of Alabama and independent journalists like Jonathan Cook and economists like Michael Hudson and many, many, others. My world view was very much influenced by reading Noam Chomsky years ago on US foreign policy, the nature of power and the propaganda model - the way in which the MSM serves power (see his book: "manufacturing Consent"). In fact there is a relevant article by Media Lens on the way in which the MSM have distorted the public discourse on the war in Ukraine here:

Did The West Provoke The Ukraine War? Sorry, That Question Has Been Cancelled

Is it possible for an entire 'mainstream' media system - every newspaper, website, TV channel - to completely suppress one side of a crucial argument without anyone expressing outrage, or even noticing? Consider the following. In February 2022, Nigel Farage, former and future leader of the Reform

www.medialens.org

I recall one thing Chomsky said that stuck with me (this doesn't apply to the Boro at all!)

"I remember, in high school, I was pretty old, I suddenly asked myself at one point, why do I care if my high school team wins the football game? I mean, I don't know anybody on the team, you know? They have nothing to do with me. I mean, why am I cheering for my team? It doesn't make any sense, you know? But the point is, it does make sense. It's a way of building up irrational attitudes of submission to authority. And you know, group cohesion, behind leadership elements. In fact, it's training in irrational jingoism. "

It reminded me of all the times I had been involved in arguments where I was defending Britain's role in the world. Why was I doing that? Was it some sort of tribal mentality? I didn't have to choose sides. In fact doing so only stops you from getting at the truth. I decided for then on that I would stop doing it and just look objectively at the facts. It was a liberating feeling and leads to a balanced view, rather than irrational bias.

When I express my views on issues like Ukraine, I immediately get a certain kind of push back from others which just makes me think: these people have already picked sides and are demonstrating bias. They accuse me of hating the West, or of being pro-Russian and say things like: " well why don't you go and live in Russia then". You get my point?

I think I will stop there for now.

I appreciate that post. Thanks.

 

[Redwurzel]

It's a really good book. It's been remarkable to me ever since reading it how often world events have subsequently appeared to confirm Marshall's observations/thoughts.

He has a whole chapter on Russia and its the first one in the book. He says Putin and Russians in general are terrified about attacks from the West after WW2 (when 20 million died in the USSR, some of course fighting for the Germans even though they were Soviet citizens). There is no natural defences between Ukraine and Russia i.e. no seas or mountains its mainly flat farmland and lots of it making it near impossible to defend. TM says Putin also see himself as defender of ethnic Russians. 60% of Crimea is ethnic Russians, but its now within Ukraine or was in 2019 when his book was written. TM says the Ukrainian Government was about the ban the speaking of Russian in Ukraine, even though it is normally the first language of ethnic Russians.

 

[Mwelolo]

He has a whole chapter on Russia and its the first one in the book. He says Putin and Russians in general are terrified about attacks from the West after WW2 (when 20 million died in the USSR, some of course fighting for the Germans even though they were Soviet citizens). There is no natural defences between Ukraine and Russia i.e. no seas or mountains its mainly flat farmland and lots of it making it near impossible to defend. TM says Putin also see himself as defender of ethnic Russians. 60% of Crimea is ethnic Russians, but its now within Ukraine or was in 2019 when his book was written. TM says the Ukrainian Government was about the ban the speaking of Russian in Ukraine, even though it is normally the first language of ethnic Russians.

I’m not saying it in any way justified the attack on Ukraine or was the only reason/benefit for it taking place but I am sure Russia will have been very anxious about the increasing proximity of NATO to their borders and this was a factor.

 

[iamborome]

Refer Ukraine/Russia - I would recommend a book called "Prisoners of Geography" by Tim Marshall. Was for sale in The Works bookshops for £2.

TM is part of the Western Liberal Elite holding senior position at Sky and the BBC i.e. no friend of Putin.

But in his book he does to his credit, put himself at times in the shoes of others and explains what he thinks Putin wants and what others want. Just read the first long paragraph of the introduction.

I have the 2019 edition - I hope more recent ones have not been edited/censored.

The book was also endorsed by Sir John Scarlett who was a controller at the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) 2004 - 2009.

TM also writes about football fans!

John Scarlett

 

[SuedeDenimSecretPolice]

I’m not saying it in any way justified the attack on Ukraine or was the only reason/benefit for it taking place but I am sure Russia will have been very anxious about the increasing proximity of NATO to their borders and this was a factor.

NATO is a defensive organisation. I feel the only time Russia becomes anxious of NATO is when a country that is on Russia's expansion menu shows any sign of wishing to join effectively removing them as potential targets.

 

[Smoggle]

I’m not saying it in any way justified the attack on Ukraine or was the only reason/benefit for it taking place but I am sure Russia will have been very anxious about the increasing proximity of NATO to their borders and this was a factor.

You also have to consider why all these countries that have spent significant parts of their history being ruled or directly influenced by Moscow want to join an alliance that they perceive would protect them from Moscow.

 

[Muttley]

You also have to consider why all these countries that have spent significant parts of their history being ruled or directly influenced by Moscow want to join an alliance that they perceive would protect them from Moscow.

It should be remembered that at the time of the major expansion of NATO (mid 90s) the former "Warsaw Pact" states could see that the Russians were still prepared to use military force to ensure compliance in a neighbouring state (Chechnya). The Russian Empire is still a notional thing to which Putin refers (he has mentioned Peter The Great and named areas that he regards as part of the Russian hegemony). NATO does not go out recruiting.

That said, the rhetoric about the actions of the Western powers is largely true. We have used both hard (military) and soft (cultural) power to influence the actions of neighbouring state. The US in particular has funded coups and other insurrections. We have been guilty in the past of heinous crimes in the third world. The political stance of modern India is to a large extent precipitated by our actions in Empire times. But that is just "whataboutism". If we were invading, oh I don't know, some African country to acquire valuable mineral resources then we would be the bad guys. We're not and the fact that we did it in the past does not absolve Russia from doing it now.

We badly failed the Russian people when the Soviet Union fell apart. We left them to "get on with it" whilst we enjoyed the "peace dividend". In the ensuing power vacuum resources and influence was seized by crooks and bullies. The lot of the Russian people remained to be largely indistinguishable from serfdom.

We do indeed need to do better but the blame for this war does not reside with the West whatever the excusers might wish.

 

[Mwelolo]

You also have to consider why all these countries that have spent significant parts of their history being ruled or directly influenced by Moscow want to join an alliance that they perceive would protect them from Moscow.

Yes, because they perceive Russia to be a threat, which they probably are.

 

[Redwurzel]

There is a chicken and egg situation here - Is Ukraine joining NATO a purely defensive measure? if you are on Russian side of the fence its an aggressive threat from a country that has a large border with your weak underbelly. Ukraine through Crimea also had control of Russia major southern Naval base and this would be NATO controlled if Ukraine joined NATO. NATO is five times larger than Russia.

Think about Cuba in 1962 - it feared a US backed invasion from a much more powerful neighbour (Bay of Pigs was a partial attempt at a invasion of Cuba in 1961 see below) and invited the Soviet missiles to protect itself. The US and the West saw this as aggressive move and threatened World War 3. In the end the Soviet missiles were returned I guess when the US said they would not invade, but have banned trade with Cuba ever since 1959.

Bay of Pigs Invasion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I also do think Putin is using the NATO threat for his own means i.e. strengthen his own situation in Russia and to try and restore more influence and power to Russia, lost in the 1990s. Countries like the US and even Britain are not immune from doing this too. Israel is a clear current example in the Middle East where it has allowed illegal Isreali/Jewish settlements to double in the last 2 years in the illegally occupied West Bank. Western Governments have stood by and done nothing concrete. In fact the US indirectly supports it through major arms sales to Israel.

 

[Hap]

I don't believe Ukraine potentially joining NATO was the real reason for the invasion, more of a credible justification.

I tend to believe Putin wants two things. Power and Legacy.

Power through military might and immense wealth. I think in recent days Lavrov made a statement along the lines that Ukraine only wanted to steal the Donbas for its vast mineral riches. The RF is a proponent of political chess, and there is a school of thought that official RF statements can be interpreted as meaning the opposite of what they say. Perhaps Russia only wanted to invade Ukraine for its vast mineral riches (the Donbas is officially in Ukraine, the last time I looked).

Legacy by re-establishing a bigger Imperial Russia and absorbing the countries on its borders and beyond.

Someone said on another thread, In Russia only Moscow matters. In Moscow only the Kremlin matters, In the Kremlin only Putin matters.

My opinion of course.

 

[Liamo]

I don't believe Ukraine potentially joining NATO was the real reason for the invasion, more of a credible justification.

I tend to believe Putin wants two things. Power and Legacy.

Or, as revealed by Dmitry Medvedev just "saying the quiet part out loud," was the real reason to get (or keep) their hands on Ukraine's natural resources, worth in the trillions?

Medvedev reminded readers that open-source data estimates the natural resources in Donbass to be worth $7.3 trillion.

Ukraine's fight for Donbass driven by resource exploitation: Medvedev

 

[iamborome]

One needs to bear in mind that Russia has been invaded twice in the last century via Ukraine and on the last occasion 27 million Russians died. Just try and get your head around that figure.

 

[Smoggle]

One needs to bear in mind that Russia has been invaded twice in the last century via Ukraine and on the last occasion 27 million Russians died. Just try and get your head around that figure.

Sorry to be pedantic but the Soviet Union was invaded and lost 27 million citizens. As the largest group, Russians will inevitably be the majority, but other Soviet republics as well as numerous other ethnicities within the Russian SSR have to be acknowledged in that total figure.

I’ve seen dozens of soviet war memorials on my travels and the sheer number of names on them in the bigger cities is staggering, Shymkent was one place that stands out in my memory… but the small villages with whole families lost is just unbelievably sad.

 

[SuedeDenimSecretPolice]

I think the whole Russian 'you can't trust the evil west' narrative is just a convenient way to control the populace. A bogeyman that allows them to continue raping their own country and that of their neighbours if they can get away with it.

 

[iamborome]

I think the whole Russian 'you can't trust the evil west' narrative is just a convenient way to control the populace. A bogeyman that allows them to continue raping their own country and that of their neighbours if they can get away with it.

Which is so different of course to the Western narrative that Putin is evil, he is mad, he wants to take over the whole of Europe, while the West merrily commits genocide, steals other countries dollar reserves, tries to overthrow democracies and strangles the economies of countries it doesnt like, like Venezuela.

Just giving some perspective.

 

[SuedeDenimSecretPolice]

I kind of hoped someone would offer a perspective that made me reassess my current thinking regarding Russia. Unfortunately, 'we are just as bad' doesn't scratch that itch.

 

[iamborome]

I kind of hoped someone would offer a perspective that made me reassess my current thinking regarding Russia. Unfortunately, 'we are just as bad' doesn't scratch that itch.

I'm glad to hear it. Try this for starters.

Ukraine Timeline Tells the Story

Without historical context, buried by corporate media, it's impossible to understand Ukraine. Historians will tell the story. But the Establishment hits back at journalists, like at CN, who try to tell it now. By Joe Lauria Special to Consortium News The way to prevent unde

consortiumnews.com

 

[iamborome]

NATO is a defensive organisation. I feel the only time Russia becomes anxious of NATO is when a country that is on Russia's expansion menu shows any sign of wishing to join effectively removing them as potential targets.

NATO has conducted US led extensive bombing campaigns in Kosovo, Serbia, Bosnia, Libya and Syria. All of these bombing campaigns were waged without UN approval.

I think you will find that NATO is the one with the expansion menu.

 

[Mwelolo]

NATO has conducted US led extensive bombing campaigns in Kosovo, Serbia, Bosnia, Libya and Syria. All of these bombing campaigns were waged without UN approval.

I think you will find that NATO is the one with the expansion menu.

There is also the covert CIA activity on Russia’s doorstep, which they will inevitably equate with NATO.

 

[Jan_Aage_Fjortoft]

NATO has conducted US led extensive bombing campaigns in Kosovo, Serbia, Bosnia, Libya and Syria. All of these bombing campaigns were waged without UN approval.

I think you will find that NATO is the one with the expansion menu.

When are you going to get UN approval for anything? Russia and China veto any proposals put forward by the West. And vice versa. I'm not sure what scenario would need to happen for all five members of the security council to agree to any type of action related to war. Alien invasion maybe?