Phil Foden

[atypical_boro]

Won nothing yet no previous manager except arguably Bobby Robson had a more gifted squad.
With the riches he's had available we have massively underperformed.
Nothing less than the final would be acceptable, despite Southgate.

Surely the 2004-2008 squad was easily as “gifted”.

Rooney, Owen, Beckham, Lampard, Scholes, A Cole, Neville, Ferdinand, Terry, Carragher, Campbell, Carrick, Woodgate, Walcott, J Cole.

The only reason anyone would argue that they weren’t as “gifted” would surely be because they weren’t very good when it mattered. Significantly less good than any squad Southgate has had.

 

[BoroMart]

what like at the World Cup you mean, when we had (wait for it cos this will blow your mind) 2 holding midfielders.

We can’t out defend teams, the last 3 tournaments have shown that so why would we try it again?

Foden, Rice and Bellingham are easily intelligent enough footballers to be able to play together without the need for Henderson or Phillips to bail them out.

But anyway it doesn’t matter because we’ll go with the usual holding 2, somehow try and squeeze Bellingham and Foden in to the same position and bring Rashford and Mount or Gallagher on when it doesn’t work.

To be fair we would probably have if Kane had put a penalty away and the ref had done his job for the foul on saka

 

[BoroMart]

Surely the 2004-2008 squad was easily as “gifted”.

Rooney, Owen, Beckham, Lampard, Scholes, A Cole, Neville, Ferdinand, Terry, Carragher, Campbell, Carrick, Woodgate, Walcott, J Cole.

The only reason anyone would argue that they weren’t as “gifted” would surely be because they weren’t very good when it mattered. Significantly less good than any squad Southgate has had.

More so, it had world class quality in most positions, the current squad has 1 cf of note and poor defenders. The squad that lost to Croatia in the World Cup was actually quite poor

 

[BoroMart]

Scholes has gone on record as saying he liked playing for United on the left wing.

He only played on the wing for England in one tournament, and he was crap, but he was crap for England most of the time. As were Lampard/Gerrard regardless of where they played, certainly in the big tournaments.

Most of them from that “golden generation” have since said that the main issue was that the rivalries between the clubs and club managers (Wenger/Ferguson/Mourinho/Benitez) meant that they had no chemistry as people when it came to playing for England.

I’m not disagreeing with your point but, just saying, I think we’ve discovered there was a bit more to it with those lot. Gareth seems to have done a decent job of breaking down club rivalries.

He’s done a superb job of breaking down rivalries. That can’t be denied. He’s also created a stronger mentality and desire to play for the country

 

[zzzzz]

He’s done a superb job of breaking down rivalries. That can’t be denied. He’s also created a stronger mentality and desire to play for the country

Can't be denied can't be proven.
Also can't be denied that the players have little respect for him given that his managerial accomplishments are zero.

 

[breakthewallsdown]

Foden, Bellingham, Saka, Kane - no better front four in football

Are we ever going to play a 4231 formation though to fit them all in? If we did and put Phillips or Henderson next to Rice in the 2, people would still find a way to whinge.

Id still personally play 433 with Bellingham #8 and Foden/Maddison #10 and Rice as the #6, have Stones push into midfield from CB

 

[The Card Cheat]

Won nothing yet no previous manager except arguably Bobby Robson had a more gifted squad.
With the riches he's had available we have massively underperformed.
Nothing less than the final would be acceptable, despite Southgate.

We have a better squad now than we've ever had, and now's the time to deliver, but the squads that we've reached Semi Finals and Finals with are nowhere near as good as the players Venables and particularly Eriksson had, not even as good as the squad McLaren had and like you say Bobby Robson had.
We got to a World Cup semi final, with a midfield of Henderson, Ali and Lingard. We got to a final with players with less experience and quality than most of the squads that previous managers have had.
If we don't deliver at this tournament, then it's justified to criticise him for underachieving, but you can't criticise someone before something has even happened.
People forget how utterly utterly embarrassing England had become for years before Southgate, for tournament after tournament.
I think he'll be missed when he's gone.

 

[LaPennaBianca]

Are we ever going to play a 4231 formation though to fit them all in? If we did and put Phillips or Henderson next to Rice in the 2, people would still find a way to whinge.

Id still personally play 433 with Bellingham #8 and Foden/Maddison #10 and Rice as the #6, have Stones push into midfield from CB

I think the former in big games and the latter when we're playing against teams we should beat/chasing games.

 

[Colgates_shaving_foam]

He wouldn’t be a CDM. The game has moved on since those days of fixed roles. It’s easy to throw the Lampard and Gerrard example out but they were in a four man midfield having to cover each other when the other player went forward. Systems are much more fluid these days and having Rice in the CDM role allows the other midfielders to get forward more often. Bellingham would drop back and cover when we lose the ball but have the freedom to join attacks when we do.

If we play Jude as a CDM but in reality he's playing as a second '10' then when we lose the ball he will still be too advanced to help defensively and a good team will destroy us.

The fullbacks will bomb forward so your holding midfielders have to be disciplined enough to drop in and cover the turnover in possession when walker and Shaw are out of the game.

I have been very impressed with Barkley from what I have seen this season. Out of possession he has looked very disciplined and right now he would get that spot alongside Rice for me. Obviously Henderson or phillips will get that position in the real world.

 

[zzzzz]

We have a better squad now than we've ever had, and now's the time to deliver, but the squads that we've reached Semi Finals and Finals with are nowhere near as good as the players Venables and particularly Eriksson had, not even as good as the squad McLaren had and like you say Bobby Robson had.
We got to a World Cup semi final, with a midfield of Henderson, Ali and Lingard. We got to a final with players with less experience and quality than most of the squads that previous managers have had.
If we don't deliver at this tournament, then it's justified to criticise him for underachieving, but you can't criticise someone before something has even happened.
People forget how utterly utterly embarrassing England had become for years before Southgate, for tournament after tournament.
I think he'll be missed when he's gone.

I agree he's can be compared to Smac but that's not much of benchmark. At least Smac had some form and reputation as a coach, albeit as a number 2.
To suggest Southgate is in the same league as Venebles and Sir Bobby......... sorry but that's just not right.

I just dislike him, as a coach and as an individual.

You could argue that he should never have been appointed, and I accept that. However that still doesn't make him a good coach/manager.

I've said before, he shook hands with Gibson when he left us to agree to take his pay off in normal salary (we had cashflow issues) then 2 weeks later the club got a letter from his legal team demanding full payment of the balance of his Contract > £1million.
Gibson was incensed and went public with the money Southgate had had out of MFC as a player and Manager over the years. £16 million+

I can't abide greed. That, and he's never shown any particular fondness for his time here.

 

[WilliamMunny]

I agree he's can be compared to Smac but that's not much of benchmark. At least Smac had some form and reputation as a coach, albeit as a number 2.
To suggest Southgate is in the same league as Venebles and Sir Bobby......... sorry but that's just not right.

I just dislike him, as a coach and as an individual.

You could argue that he should never have been appointed, and I accept that. However that still doesn't make him a good coach/manager.

I've said before, he shook hands with Gibson when he left us to agree to take his pay off in normal salary (we had cashflow issues) then 2 weeks later the club got a letter from his legal team demanding full payment of the balance of his Contract > £1million.
Gibson was incensed and went public with the money Southgate had had out of MFC as a player and Manager over the years. £16 million+

I can't abide greed. That, and he's never shown any particular fondness for his time here.

So what you're saying is you have a strong personal bias against Southgate that prevents you from making any objective assessment of his tenure as England manager.

With that in mind, it seems somewhat redundant to point out that he has had 2 chances to win a tournament with this squad and the first of those Bellingham was 17/18 and Foden 21, Saka 19, and Rice 22 with no Champions League experience.

It took Pep Guardiola 7 seasons to win the Champions League with Man City and he now has 3 Champions Leagues in 15 seasons managing one of the top 8 clubs in Europe. At the top level of competition - Champions League, Euros, World Cup - no matter how good your manager is, you always need the stars to align to win. I'll repeat, Southgate has had TWO tournaments with the current squad and lost a final on pens and a QF to France which could very easily have gone the other way.

 

[atypical_boro]

I agree he's can be compared to Smac but that's not much of benchmark. At least Smac had some form and reputation as a coach, albeit as a number 2.
To suggest Southgate is in the same league as Venebles and Sir Bobby......... sorry but that's just not right.

I just dislike him, as a coach and as an individual.

You could argue that he should never have been appointed, and I accept that. However that still doesn't make him a good coach/manager.

I've said before, he shook hands with Gibson when he left us to agree to take his pay off in normal salary (we had cashflow issues) then 2 weeks later the club got a letter from his legal team demanding full payment of the balance of his Contract > £1million.
Gibson was incensed and went public with the money Southgate had had out of MFC as a player and Manager over the years. £16 million+

I can't abide greed. That, and he's never shown any particular fondness for his time here.

In 90 minutes, Venables managed two competitive victories with England. Both at Wembley. One was against Scotland. He never managed any in a knock out.

On England career only, Venables’ record doesn’t hold a candle to Southgate’s. Neither does Robson’s tbh.

And he had Shearer, Gascoigne, Seaman, Adams, Beardsley, Pearce, Sheringham, Ince and McManaman at his disposal.

 

[The Card Cheat]

I agree he's can be compared to Smac but that's not much of benchmark. At least Smac had some form and reputation as a coach, albeit as a number 2.
To suggest Southgate is in the same league as Venebles and Sir Bobby......... sorry but that's just not right.

I just dislike him, as a coach and as an individual.

You could argue that he should never have been appointed, and I accept that. However that still doesn't make him a good coach/manager.

I've said before, he shook hands with Gibson when he left us to agree to take his pay off in normal salary (we had cashflow issues) then 2 weeks later the club got a letter from his legal team demanding full payment of the balance of his Contract > £1million.
Gibson was incensed and went public with the money Southgate had had out of MFC as a player and Manager over the years. £16 million+

I can't abide greed. That, and he's never shown any particular fondness for his time here.

He's not in the same league as Robson or Venables when it comes to club management, probably never will be.
He might have been greedy when he left here, I don't know.
None of that changes the fact he's done a very good job as England manager, especially when you consider the omnishambles he inherited.

 

[Marvanelli]

Bellingham was 17 and playing in the second tier, and had about 12 games under his belt.

Eh? For Euro 2020?

He literally left Birmingham for Dortmund in the summer of 2020.

Jude was playing for Dortmund before the Euro's started.

He was playing in the Champions League the season leading up the Euro's.

I vividly remember him playing in the Quarters against City and being shocked at how good he actually was, whilst scoring at the Etihad.

 

[BoroMart]

Can't be denied can't be proven.
Also can't be denied that the players have little respect for him given that his managerial accomplishments are zero.

You see it's this type of extreme black and white thinking that grips my chocolate log. If you don't win a trophy then you are a zero, a failure. By that rationale Jack Charlton was a failed manager he never won a world cup or euros with ireland never won the league or an FA or League cup as a manager. Ergo he's an utter failure. It's just nonsense.

England do not have a history of winning trophies or even making finals. Teaching one is, by definition one of our greatest acheivements, even if we lost it. Just like Boro reaching a UEFA Cup final.

People need to realise that this entitlement that we win trophies is a false narrative. We have very rarely been serious challengers for cups, despite having many talented squads. We are right now, it isn't just about having the right players because we had that 15 years ago and failed. It's having the right technical players, the right tactical plan, the right characters in the squad, the right culture around the group. We have all that in place now, and it just needs to be nurtured over the line. For the first time in my life, I feel we actually have the base of a group that could win this summer. It'll take some luck with refs not allowing the bad tackles we got against france, it'll take our CF not missing a key penalty, it'll need our only real CF to stay fit, and a LB to get fit. But there is a real chance with this group, this leader, and this philosophy.

 

[BoroMart]

We have a better squad now than we've ever had, and now's the time to deliver, but the squads that we've reached Semi Finals and Finals with are nowhere near as good as the players Venables and particularly Eriksson had, not even as good as the squad McLaren had and like you say Bobby Robson had.
We got to a World Cup semi final, with a midfield of Henderson, Ali and Lingard. We got to a final with players with less experience and quality than most of the squads that previous managers have had.
If we don't deliver at this tournament, then it's justified to criticise him for underachieving, but you can't criticise someone before something has even happened.
People forget how utterly utterly embarrassing England had become for years before Southgate, for tournament after tournament.
I think he'll be missed when he's gone.

spot on, if he doesn't reach the semi at least then, yes probably fair critiscism, although so much rides on Kane, if he were to get injured then our plans would be scuppered before we get on teh plane through no fault of Southgate.

You are right on your assessment of the WC semi team, it was man for man very average. It's fair to say as well that the current squad isn't as deep across the whole pitch as say Erikssons or Capellos, but we do have several world class talents in attack, as long as we don't leave the defence too open to the counter, we do have a good chance.

 

[SilentProf]

Can't be denied can't be proven.
Also can't be denied that the players have little respect for him given that his managerial accomplishments are zero.

It also can’t be proven that the players have little respect for him. A lot of opinions are clouded by his time here but the England players he’s worked with, some since the under 21’s, have always said good things about him. His tournament record and the fact he’s got them all working together without club rivalries being an issue says he’s a much better manager now than he was when he was here and the players must respect him or you would regularly see things leaked in the media as we’ve seen with previous managers.

 

[BoroMart]

It also can’t be proven that the players have little respect for him. A lot of opinions are clouded by his time here but the England players he’s worked with, some since the under 21’s, have always said good things about him. His tournament record and the fact he’s got them all working together without club rivalries being an issue says he’s a much better manager now than he was when he was here and the players must respect him or you would regularly see things leaked in the media as we’ve seen with previous managers.

I thinks it's fair that some Boro fans are probably unfairly judging him by the man that was thrown under the bus by the club as a novice manager. Remember not only had he never done any management, he hadn't done any coaching or any badges and wasn't even contemplating retirement or becoming a manager. I have more badges than Southgate had when he took over.

It was a ludicrous appointment in hindsight, I can't think of any manager at prem or championship level that hasn't had at least a couple of years as a coach to learn the ropes.

Obviously now, we can see what Gibson saw in him, he's handling the toughest job in the game, and showing a real culture building and philosophy embedding side that would have been great here, but he really needed to be coach for 3 years to someone of the nature of a venebles type to learn the ropes from. That probably would have worked.

 

[atypical_boro]

I’d be the first to say he did a crap job here, as manager (certainly not player). Funds were low, sure, but he still didn’t do as well as he should have, and relegation should have been off the table.

But after the McClaren and Capello horror shows, followed by the absolute disaster of Roy Hodgson at two tournaments, to say my expectations were low when he took over in 2016 is an understatement. I was someone who said we should have beaten Croatia in 2018 (the draw was kind), but since then we have avoided a lot of major banana skins that previous managers would have fallen to. Losing narrowly to Italy in a final and France in a QF are no great national embarrassments.

We have a good chance this summer. I still refuse to “believe” it will happen but if he gets us to yet another last 4 he will have clearly outperformed all his predecessors (except Ramsey of course).

 

[Frozen Horse]

I thinks it's fair that some Boro fans are probably unfairly judging him by the man that was thrown under the bus by the club as a novice manager. Remember not only had he never done any management, he hadn't done any coaching or any badges and wasn't even contemplating retirement or becoming a manager. I have more badges than Southgate had when he took over.

I do think there is an element amongst Boro fans who feel entitled to bear a grudge against GS for his time as manager here. He wasn't a good manager for us, yet that says nothing about who and what he is now.

One criticism levelled at him that I have to treat with contempt is that he sticks with the old familiar too much. This is an accusation I've heard levelled at every England manager during my lifetime, and it has never been less accurate than when levelled at GS. No one has given young and up and coming players more of a chance than GS has. The crudest argument I've heard is that if GS is not picking based on form, he can only be picking on hype, which is clearly nonsense.