Our young players
- Thread starter Paulh10
- Start date
Unless we are planning on giving them plenty of game time (and not 5-10 mins here and there), I would send both out to a team keen to give them first team games. Ideally League 1 but League 2 if we need to. Give them some senior football experience which is far more beneficial than U21 football at this stage in their career.
They both need to go out on loan.
We've let too many players fizzle out in the reserves over the years - Jeremy Sivi was one - He looked great at 18 but didn't get a loan move till this season (21), and he'll be 22 in July.
As soon as they hit 22 it's pretty much over for them here unless they've established themselves, because we'd need to give them a squad number.
Joe Gibson's just been released, it wouldn't surprise me if Sivi was sold/released too.
I know it's probably difficult going out on loan at 17 years old - but even a loan to Hartlepool is better than playing in the U21 in my opinion.
We've let too many players fizzle out in the reserves over the years - Jeremy Sivi was one - He looked great at 18 but didn't get a loan move till this season (21), and he'll be 22 in July.
As soon as they hit 22 it's pretty much over for them here unless they've established themselves, because we'd need to give them a squad number.
Joe Gibson's just been released, it wouldn't surprise me if Sivi was sold/released too.
I know it's probably difficult going out on loan at 17 years old - but even a loan to Hartlepool is better than playing in the U21 in my opinion.
starplayer
Well-known member
Id keep them around the first team group. Too young to be exposed to too much rough, direct football that goes on in the lower reaches. They are progressing well as it is with the support and back up of the experienced first team pros and the coaching staff.
Marineboysmoggy
Active member
Frankie Whelan also released.Think Derby or Whitby are looking at him
They need to get used to playing against adults as early as possible. The move away from reserve teams to youth teams means they are playing a different game and those that look good in the youth teams aren't always able to make the step up to playing the same way against more physical and athletic players. The way the system works now is that pretty much nobody goes straight from the youth team to the first team. We loan PL youth players and we loan our young players down the leagues as well. Hackney didn't have a great season at Scunthorpe but he was physically ready when he had his chance in our first team.
TheYorkshireTerrier
Well-known member
MickaelDebevePhenomenal
Well-known member
Going out on loan has to be a two way reciprocal agreement. There will be very few takers in league one and two for 17/18 year olds, those leagues are brutal.
Boro_Interlinked
Well-known member
I was just looking at this couple of days ago. The nearest I got was a PL directive but hopefully the same applies in EFL. You can be 21yrs 7 months and 2 weeks old at the start of the season (say Aug 14th) and still be registered to play in the U21 setup for the full season. Any older and you must register as player number for the seniors.
Terrell Agyemang was born in Nov or Dec and he's already 21 now so just misses out by 6 weeks or so . If Boro wish to keep him he will have to be registered as a senior.
I would keep anyone under 20 playing with the U21 unless they show already a good maturity, then maybe possibly try for a half season loan Aug- Dec in non league or lower but also still up North , Sheffield area or above.
Terrell Agyemang was born in Nov or Dec and he's already 21 now so just misses out by 6 weeks or so . If Boro wish to keep him he will have to be registered as a senior.
I would keep anyone under 20 playing with the U21 unless they show already a good maturity, then maybe possibly try for a half season loan Aug- Dec in non league or lower but also still up North , Sheffield area or above.
In your opinion.... What's the benefit of keeping a player with the U21 instead of sending them out to Hartlepool / Darlington / Spennymoor?
Players like Jack Hannah will be 22 in December too and he's only played 2 games of professional football.
I know he's a one off talent and players mature at different ages... but Sunderland have 16 year old Chris Rigg playing in our division.... 5 and a half years younger than him.
starplayer
Well-known member
Havent you answered your own question,Ash. Rigg is playing for his own club.
Boro_Interlinked
Well-known member
I'd say that's enforced desperation. Getting nothing from Rusyn, Semedo, Burstow all season , then Pritchard leaving in a quickfire moment and JC on the other side out of the game. I know nothing of S U21 obv but likely some they would have tried were already out on loan and committed. Perhaps Rigg was only suitable fall back. He only seems to have gained game time from end of Feb so like 11 games. Roll of the dice from Sunlun in absence of any other option
I know next to nothing about coaching young players or academy football in general, but we have players like Hannah, Collins, Sykes, Lindo, Willis... some of them are 21, nearly 22... and they've never kicked a ball in a professional game.
My overall point is if our players can't become as developed as Rigg can at 16... at 22... then it suggests there's either something not right in our U21 coaching, or they never will be good enough.
6 years can be 33% of an entire professional football career.
I think over the past few years we've had too many players dubbed "the next breakthrough" player, for them to end up playing for Redcar or Stockton by the age of 24.
We have a few in the academy now... Ajay Matthews, standing out in the U18, rumoured to be wanted by Chelsea.
If he's "that good"... then he should be "that good" to do 6 months at Hartlepool. Prove it and score 10 goals in the National League - He could be in a Boro shirt at 19-20.
Or are we just going to leave him in the U21s for another 3-4 years then release him like we do most of the others?
SCG
Well-known member
If you want to progress your career with good football and a stable club, I’d sign for Whitby.
I think you have to accept that there are serious levels within the academy intakes. The reality is that just 3 or 4 of every year group will make a career out of football at a professional level. Maybe 1 every year will be able to play at Championship level or higher.
Law McCabe played in the Championship at 17 - that is phenomenal by most standards. Finn Cartwright got minutes at the age of 16. The reality is that these lads are sharing an Academy changing room with players who will only ever be good enough for non league. Excellent players - but not at the level of some of their peers. Boro realise this and know that to improve standards in the academy they need to bring in better quality - so that the potential gems (Cartwright, McCabe, Matthews, Lennon, Hamelberg) are challenged in training. Hence the recent influx of players from London. The theory being that raising the overall quality of the academy programme, means that we get more Championship level players out.
Comparing Chris Rigg (who has been one of the most highly rated teenagers in the Country) against most academy players is like comparing a 16 year old Usain Bolt vs a 22 year old club level sprinter - and asking why the 22 year old isn't beating a 16 year old Usain Bolt. The short answer is: talent. Chris Rigg (like Law McCabe, Cartwright etc) has a talent (and physical stature) to allow him to play at Championship level at a very young age. The vast majority of academy players just don't have the talent, physical and/or mental qualities to play at the level.
As Carrick says regularly, young players have to be good enough and earn the chance to play at this level. Remember, the Northern League is full of players who have been part of Boro's academy at various ages. Some of these will have been very close to getting a scholarship at Boro. At that point there could be very little to choose between 6 or 7 lads but only 1 gets taken on. That chosen lad isn't automatically miles better than the unfortunate ones, so it should be no surprise that they end up playing together again at the same level in non league. I believe that all players eventually find their level.
Law McCabe played in the Championship at 17 - that is phenomenal by most standards. Finn Cartwright got minutes at the age of 16. The reality is that these lads are sharing an Academy changing room with players who will only ever be good enough for non league. Excellent players - but not at the level of some of their peers. Boro realise this and know that to improve standards in the academy they need to bring in better quality - so that the potential gems (Cartwright, McCabe, Matthews, Lennon, Hamelberg) are challenged in training. Hence the recent influx of players from London. The theory being that raising the overall quality of the academy programme, means that we get more Championship level players out.
Comparing Chris Rigg (who has been one of the most highly rated teenagers in the Country) against most academy players is like comparing a 16 year old Usain Bolt vs a 22 year old club level sprinter - and asking why the 22 year old isn't beating a 16 year old Usain Bolt. The short answer is: talent. Chris Rigg (like Law McCabe, Cartwright etc) has a talent (and physical stature) to allow him to play at Championship level at a very young age. The vast majority of academy players just don't have the talent, physical and/or mental qualities to play at the level.
As Carrick says regularly, young players have to be good enough and earn the chance to play at this level. Remember, the Northern League is full of players who have been part of Boro's academy at various ages. Some of these will have been very close to getting a scholarship at Boro. At that point there could be very little to choose between 6 or 7 lads but only 1 gets taken on. That chosen lad isn't automatically miles better than the unfortunate ones, so it should be no surprise that they end up playing together again at the same level in non league. I believe that all players eventually find their level.
Middlesbrough123
Well-known member
Being part of a promotion season will probably have a bigger impact on their careers than sat on bench elsewhere most of the time at their age
Hopefully that's true - some of the London players look pretty good - I liked the look of Prince Acheampong - and Hamelberg was signed after being released from Fulham U21.
The point I'm trying to make is, the conversations we're having about Cartwright, McCabe, etc... this season, are the same conversations we've had about Gibson and Sivi.
Going further back we probably had the same conversations about Connor Malley and others.
They NEED to go out on loan sooner rather than later in my opinion, for 6-12 months, or like you say... they'll end up playing together at the same level again.
I tend to agree that loans can be very useful. Downing, Johnson, Ben Gibson, Hackney, Coburn... all benefitted from loans.
Others did it without loans including Tav, Fry, Morrison, Cattermole, Wheater etc. I don't think it is one size fits all. On many occasions loans haven't worked for lots of our youngsters including: Kav, Nathan Wood, Chapman, Stott and many others even at non league level.
I'm really not sure Sivi, Gibson, Malley, Hannah etc were rated anywhere near the level of some of the current crop. I don't recall them representing top level international teams regularly. I might be wrong but they were perhaps the best of a rather weak group.
Jimmy_Salmon
Well-known member
I think it depends on the personality of the player personally. Going out on loan too early could break one player but make another. There’s no hard and fast rule.
I think the % of players coming from our academy to our first team (lets say who play more than 5 games) who have been loaned out would be much higher than the players who haven't...
Even some of those did half a season out on loan. Tav to MK Dons, Fry to Rotherham, Wheater to Doncaster. Morrison and Cattermole didn't - but we're going back 10 years there?
Even though it worked out for Tav/Fry/Wheater - we also seem to be sending players out on loan very late in their development.
Stott will be 21 next season - Sivi will be 22 in July and this is his first season out on loan.
I agree we haven't had any players in the international setup in recent years, but that's even more reason to get the current crop out on loan in my opinion...
Ajay Matthews is part of the England U18 setup. He'll be 18 in June.
I believe all our young players should be loaned out before they hit 20 at the latest - so if we go back three years to 2020/21... the three England U18 strikers were Delap, Barry and Jebbison.
Delap has just turned 21 - and he's spent 2 full seasons out on loan - so he was loaned out at 18.
Jebbison is 20 - he was loaned to Burton at 18 and played 20+ games - he's now part of the Sheff Utd squad.
Barry has been loaned out to 5 different clubs - playing 6 games for Ipswich and then 16 for Swindon when he was 18.
England U18 in 19/20 - Gelhardt, Stansfield and Layton Stewart.
Gelhardt broke through to the Wigan team and played 20+ games as a 17-18 year old. Leeds signed him and he played a number of games at 18 years old there too.
Stansfield is still only 21 - He was signed by Fulham U21 and loaned straight back to Exeter where he played 30+ games at 19.
Layton Stewart went the other way... No games until this season where he's played 200~ mins for Preston - He'll be 22 next season so might be released/sold to a lower level club.
--- There are very few players who move from England U18 to U21 who haven't played professional football. Ajay Matthews has 1 year until he's at that level.