Operation Gommorra - July / August 1943 : Hamburg "Firestorm" kills thousands.

[WoodallServices]

They sowed the wind!!

 

[BoroMart]

we were locked in an existential conflict with an evil regime that had all Germany in its thrall and whose military machine conquered virtually all of mainland Europe and was conducting the systematic murder of an entire race.

It's an interesting argument that Germany were evil and we were some force for good. The German regime certainly was evil, but we were no white knights. I mean we didn't enter that war with the thought of saving Jews, in fact we practically invented concentration camps for a an ethnic group during the Boer War and we starved millions of Indians, murderer more and usurps millions from their homes before during and after the war. The general theory was that Germany didn't want to invade GB, we had royal family ties, and would have been a difficult military target as an island. It was probably more existential in that it was existential for imperial power.

 

[Lightweight]

It's an interesting argument that Germany were evil and we were some force for good. The German regime certainly was evil, but we were no white knights. I mean we didn't enter that war with the thought of saving Jews, in fact we practically invented concentration camps for a an ethnic group during the Boer War and we starved millions of Indians, murderer more and usurps millions from their homes before during and after the war. The general theory was that Germany didn't want to invade GB, we had royal family ties, and would have been a difficult military target as an island. It was probably more existential in that it was existential for imperial power.

Not sure if you have heard of Operation Sealion, the Germany plan to invade Great Britain and wether it was a serious plan or not but it’s an interesting topic to look at. It was never able to progress due to certain targets never being reached, it it open to debate if it was a realistic goal or not.
Link
Also whilst not absolving the British Empire of the atrocities during the Boar war and India, they did not invent the Concentration camps ( the Spainish and USA beat us to that) Link

Not wishing to antagonise or cause an argument but I have heard both of these statements before and though both are interesting historical topics there is often muddled ideas about actuality of the events

 

[chickenrunner]

It's an interesting argument that Germany were evil and we were some force for good. The German regime certainly was evil, but we were no white knights. I mean we didn't enter that war with the thought of saving Jews, in fact we practically invented concentration camps for a an ethnic group during the Boer War and we starved millions of Indians, murderer more and usurps millions from their homes before during and after the war. The general theory was that Germany didn't want to invade GB, we had royal family ties, and would have been a difficult military target as an island. It was probably more existential in that it was existential for imperial power.

Churchill understood that there would be no peace and security in Europe whilst the Nazis existed and that appeasement was a non-starter as the Nazis were unlikely to honour any terms agreed. They were an existential threat to this island. In terms of WW2 they were evil and in playing the fullest part in their destruction we were a force for good.
If we want to feel bad about our conduct I suggest you start with our disgraceful treatment of the Czechs at Munich and our failure to support the Poles .... twice.

 

[BoroMart]

Churchill understood that there would be no peace and security in Europe whilst the Nazis existed and that appeasement was a non-starter as the Nazis were unlikely to honour any terms agreed. They were an existential threat to this island. In terms of WW2 they were evil and in playing the fullest part in their destruction we were a force for good.
If we want to feel bad about our conduct I suggest you start with our disgraceful treatment of the Czechs at Munich and our failure to support the Poles .... twice.

We were really not a force for good, I mean the fact we were prepared to carpet bomb civilians many of them innocent and against teh war, for little to no benefit to the war effort tells us that. Well of course you are right on the Czechs and Poles, too.

 

[Soutra]

If we hadn't won the war one wonders if you would be able to freely discuss the ins and outs on a message board. As for the history ......... we were locked in an existential conflict with an evil regime that had all Germany in its thrall and whose military machine conquered virtually all of mainland Europe and was conducting the systematic murder of an entire race. There was no room for niceties, defeat was and remains simply unthinkable.
As for the representation on here the the final outcome was a 'foregone conclusion' in 1943, it was certainly not. Even the outcome of D-Day was not the inevitable triumph that we have come to view it as today, it was a hugely risky enterprise. British servicemen were fighting and dying right to the bitter end in 1945 in order expunge the Nazis from the face of the earth.

Not all Germans were Nazis.

Jewish extermination wasn't generally known about in the West (or East) until 1944.

D Day was risky and the outcome was very much in the balance until well after June 6. However the outcome of the war was not in doubt by June 1944. The Soviet Union was strong and getting stronger, the defeat at Kursk in June 1943 had ended any realistic German hope. The Allied Conference at Tehran was to determine the shape of postwar Europe, 18 months before the formal end of the war.

The real significance of D Day is that it shortened the war, it prevented the Soviet Union occupying Europe, and it was the only way that the western Allies could disabuse Stalin of his belief that the Soviet Union, and only the Soviet Union had defeated the Axis.

 

[NZBoro1]

A good book to read about the last year of the war, and Bomber Commands role in it, is Tail End Charlies, which talks more about the crews in the last few months of the war than the very, very brave guys who sat in the back seat.

Some, quite a few, were very unsure and not happy about targeting civilians, but the plan was to hit the home front, denying the workers the chance to work by making them homeless, killing them, or tying up German soldiers from the main fronts (and weapons) in having to defend the cities, whilst also hitting (hopefully) the main targets of industrial Germany. Harris was given a list of targets to choose from, and also priorities, such as synthetic oil plants, railway marshelling yards etc, which he had to bomb, whilst his main priority, personally, was the bombing of cities.

In the book, the crews talk about why they were bombing targets so late into the war, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. The one thing that did come across is that it was not nailed on at all. After D Day we had the V1 bombers, V2's, what next? Messershmitdt 262 jet fighters, nobody knew what other weapons Germany had and might deploy. Basically, until the last few weeks the war, in a lot of peoples minds, was still very much there to be fought and definitely not over.

However, all of this aside, it was terrible, the casualties inflicted on any civilians during war time is barbaric, and this whole argument has, in my few, taken away the important fact that the personnel who crewed these aircraft were some of the bravest people going. To get into a flimsy machine, fly at 15 - 18000 feet over an enemy country for hours on end, 30 times before you are rested, with fighters and flack flying at you, takes some real courage. It saddens me that it is only recently, because of the tactics and outcry (and Churchill disowning Bomber Command at the end of the war) these brave people have been recognised for the sacrifices that they made.

 

[r00fie1]

A good book to read about the last year of the war, and Bomber Commands role in it, is Tail End Charlies, which talks more about the crews in the last few months of the war than the very, very brave guys who sat in the back seat.

Some, quite a few, were very unsure and not happy about targeting civilians, but the plan was to hit the home front, denying the workers the chance to work by making them homeless, killing them, or tying up German soldiers from the main fronts (and weapons) in having to defend the cities, whilst also hitting (hopefully) the main targets of industrial Germany. Harris was given a list of targets to choose from, and also priorities, such as synthetic oil plants, railway marshelling yards etc, which he had to bomb, whilst his main priority, personally, was the bombing of cities.

In the book, the crews talk about why they were bombing targets so late into the war, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. The one thing that did come across is that it was not nailed on at all. After D Day we had the V1 bombers, V2's, what next? Messershmitdt 262 jet fighters, nobody knew what other weapons Germany had and might deploy. Basically, until the last few weeks the war, in a lot of peoples minds, was still very much there to be fought and definitely not over.

However, all of this aside, it was terrible, the casualties inflicted on any civilians during war time is barbaric, and this whole argument has, in my few, taken away the important fact that the personnel who crewed these aircraft were some of the bravest people going. To get into a flimsy machine, fly at 15 - 18000 feet over an enemy country for hours on end, 30 times before you are rested, with fighters and flack flying at you, takes some real courage. It saddens me that it is only recently, because of the tactics and outcry (and Churchill disowning Bomber Command at the end of the war) these brave people have been recognised for the sacrifices that they made.

Just ordered Hardback. 3 GBP`s Cheers

 

[Same_as_before]

Not all Germans were Nazis.

Jewish extermination wasn't generally known about in the West (or East) until 1944.

D Day was risky and the outcome was very much in the balance until well after June 6. However the outcome of the war was not in doubt by June 1944. The Soviet Union was strong and getting stronger, the defeat at Kursk in June 1944 had ended any realistic German hope. The Allied Conference at Tehran was to determine the shape of postwar Europe, 18 months before the formal end of the war.

The real significance of D Day is that it shortened the war, it prevented the Soviet Union occupying Europe, and it was the only way that the western Allies could disabuse Stalin of his belief that the Soviet Union, and only the Soviet Union had defeated the Axis.

Wrong, Jewish percecution Was known in 1939 and before. The fact we ignored it was because they were Jews, if they had been Christian we would have attacked the camps in 1942.

You can call Churchill all you want but the fact is it was all down to German Expansion and the ridiculous treaty after WW1.

If the events after 1944 had not played out, including that at Hamburg, I am sure that Germany would have received the same action as Japan. The war had to be ended.

To try and moralise from our 3/4 bedroomed house over 70 years later is stupid.

Both my parents fought in the war, they hardly spoke about it, but they were both agreed it wasn't only Hitler who was evil in Germany. They never forgot our lack of help to the Jews and called it our Shame.

 

[BoroMart]

In the book, the crews talk about why they were bombing targets so late into the war, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. The one thing that did come across is that it was not nailed on at all. After D Day we had the V1 bombers, V2's, what next? Messershmitdt 262 jet fighters, nobody knew what other weapons Germany had and might deploy. Basically, until the last few weeks the war, in a lot of peoples minds, was still very much there to be fought and definitely not over.

That's all hypothetical though and to be honest the yanks had a a weapon of their own they could deploy or threaten if the Germans actually looked like fighting their way out of it.....which they never did. As said above the allies were talking about carving up germany 18 months before it happened because it was inevitable. The germans didn't have the resources to really ramp up building any of those weapons in serious numbers. They couldn't even keep up supplies of planes to defend their cities, their industry was struggling to supply long before the end of the war

 

[NZBoro1]

That's all hypothetical though and to be honest the yanks had a a weapon of their own they could deploy or threaten if the Germans actually looked like fighting their way out of it.....which they never did. As said above the allies were talking about carving up germany 18 months before it happened because it was inevitable. The germans didn't have the resources to really ramp up building any of those weapons in serious numbers. They couldn't even keep up supplies of planes to defend their cities, their industry was struggling to supply long before the end of the war

The ability of the Germans to ramp up production is now understood, but at the time the general populace, and politicians, were really spooked. You just have to look at the fact that the first few V1s that flew over and exploded were put down to 'gas mains' explosions - the Government of the day didn't want the general populace to panic.

Also, yes again, we now know that the US had a weapon of mass destruction, which the German scientists were also working on, and got quite close to gaining the capability, but this was top, top secret and not known about by the general populace, hence the feeling that, even in 1945, the war was far from over.

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

To be honest I don't really see why it's seen as a big no no to kill civilians. And yet the teenage boys who are drafted into the army are fair game.

 

[r00fie1]

To be honest I don't really see why it's seen as a big no no to kill civilians. And yet the teenage boys who are drafted into the army are fair game.

Civilians arent armed and trained to kill.
Thats the difference.

 

[Soutra]

Wrong, Jewish percecution Was known in 1939 and before. The fact we ignored it was because they were Jews, if they had been Christian we would have attacked the camps in 1942.

Yes, Jewish persecution was known about in the 1930s. But at what point did the Allies know that the Nazis were operating death camps? Maybe by the end of 1942, perhaps for certain during 1943. Hitler was indicted in Dec 1944 for crimes against humanity. So clearly it was known about in 1944. But what could the Western Allies do? Many of the camps - like Auschwitz - were beyond the practical range of the USAAF and the RAF at that time. And bombing was so imprecise - even hitting a something as big as a city was not guaranteed - that hitting a camp that occupied 50 acres was realistically impossible.

The shock of the western leaders at what was discovered at places like Auschwitz and Birkenau after liberation suggests that even by 1945 they didn't know close to the full story.

 

[Caesium137]

civilians many of them innocent and against teh war, for little to no benefit to the war effort tells us that

In your opinion surely, you can't present that as fact.

 

[BoroMart]

In your option surely, you can't present that as fact.

Which bit isn't factual? They were mostly women and children and old people killed. The war was well on the way to being won, irreversibly so, those people were almost exclusively non-combatants so were innocents, many were not nazi supporters either. There isn't really any justification for killing civilians.

 

[FartingGnome]

The D-Day Landings were certainly a perilous exercise, but, as you say, it gave us a way into the Continent - through occupied Northern France, driving the Panza`s eastwards towards Paris.
Once the allies had fought their way off the beaches inland, there were great losses of men and logistics. The main objective was to push back the Germans - which ultimately lead to the battle focused on what became the Falaise Pocket.
I visited the area around Falaise: the carnage was so horrid that streams and rivers flowed red with the blood and bodies of the dead. In addition, the decayed bodies of horses and cattle in the fields polluted aquifers and water tables - rendering farmland so toxic - it couldnt be safely used to grow crops or as fallow ground to graze animals.
The area was virtually closed off untill 1955 when some farming was allowed but there are still areas where live shells and carcasses still appear through the soil.

My dad fought there (6 Royal Scots Fusiliers). Didn't talk about it, he did talk a bit about Belgium and Holland though, but that's as far as he got courtesy of the naughty end of a German machine gun.

 

[Same_as_before]

I

Which bit isn't factual? They were mostly women and children and old people killed. The war was well on the way to being won, irreversibly so, those people were almost exclusively non-combatants so were innocents, many were not nazi supporters either. There isn't really any justification for killing civilians.

Of course there is no justification after 70 years, when it's not of the moment. Today in China there are a million Muslims under house arrest. You have the answers what do we do.

 

[Thing]

Yes, Jewish persecution was known about in the 1930s. But at what point did the Allies know that the Nazis were operating death camps? Maybe by the end of 1942, perhaps for certain during 1943. Hitler was indicted in Dec 1944 for crimes against humanity. So clearly it was known about in 1944. But what could the Western Allies do? Many of the camps - like Auschwitz - were beyond the practical range of the USAAF and the RAF at that time. And bombing was so imprecise - even hitting a something as big as a city was not guaranteed - that hitting a camp that occupied 50 acres was realistically impossible.

The shock of the western leaders at what was discovered at places like Auschwitz and Birkenau after liberation suggests that even by 1945 they didn't know close to the full story.

I remember one of the anniversary documentaries about the liberation of Auschwitz on this very same subject. The fact that the allies knew "something" was different about places like Auschwitz and Birkenhau but not the true extent of what was going on. It wasn't until the Russians reached Auschwitz that the true horror was revealed. But they had the moral quandry of bombing such a place, bearing in mind you'd be bombing the very people you needed to save. Also at the time they were preparing (albeit months in advance) for Overlord so did not want to risk the bombers on a morally debatable raid.

Wish I could remember of name of the programme. It was a fasinating watch.

EDIT: Found it....

BBC Two - 1944: Should We Bomb Auschwitz?

The story of two prisoners who miraculously escaped from Auschwitz in 1944.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Same_as_before]

I remember one of the anniversary documentaries about the liberation of Auschwitz on this very same subject. The fact that the allies knew "something" was different about places like Auschwitz and Birkenhau but not the true extent of what was going on. It wasn't until the Russians reached Auschwitz that the true horror was revealed. But they had the moral quandry of bombing such a place, bearing in mind you'd be bombing the very people you needed to save. Also at the time they were preparing (albeit months in advance) for Overlord so did not want to risk the bombers on a morally debatable raid.

Wish I could remember of name of the programme. It was a fasinating watch.

EDIT: Found it....

BBC Two - 1944: Should We Bomb Auschwitz?

The story of two prisoners who miraculously escaped from Auschwitz in 1944.

www.bbc.co.uk

They knew about the railway line, they could have sorted it there. We did not have the will, or at best it was not seen as a priority.

Like I said if it had not been Jews, it would have been dealt with.