Mr Bates vs The Post Office

40FootRoad

40FootRoad

Well-known member
Toby Jones is absolutely brilliant in this harrowing tale of the working man vs the establishment.
He has since refused an OBE because Paul Vennels still has her CBE.
Hopefully the link below works. Sign if you feel as angry as me 🤬

you.38degrees.org.uk

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE

I just signed the petition calling on Paula Vennells, the former CEO of the Post Office to be stripped of her CBE. Will you sign too?
you.38degrees.org.uk you.38degrees.org.uk
 
It's a disgrace that nobody from the Post Office has been charged with a criminal offence (as yet). Hopefully the public enquiry comes to the proper conclusion that Vennels and others have to be held accountable for ruining the lives of hundreds of innocent people.

She should have been arrested in 2019, but instead she was awarded a CBE. Meanwhile Alan Bates is a shining example of a good human being with a moral compass strong enough to turn down his OBE on principle.
 
40FootRoad said:
Toby Jones is absolutely brilliant in this harrowing tale of the working man vs the establishment.
He has since refused an OBE because Paul Vennels still has her CBE.
Hopefully the link below works. Sign if you feel as angry as me 🤬

you.38degrees.org.uk

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE

I just signed the petition calling on Paula Vennells, the former CEO of the Post Office to be stripped of her CBE. Will you sign too?
you.38degrees.org.uk you.38degrees.org.uk
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I was going to recommend watching this for anyone who wants to feel inordinately angry. Plus, if you want to feel even angrier, there is a decent online blog covering the evidence currently being given to the Horizon IT inquiry where various PO legal types and investigators prove they are and were utterly incompetent and conveniently can't recall what went on and their part in it all.
What I can't understand is that people were found guilty of theft or fraud without the PO proving they had taken any money. They simply wheeled out a Fujitsu 'expert' who stated that there were no faults with IT system therefore it was taken that the Sub Postmaster must therefore be guilty, what level of proof is that?!?! It's almost as if the defendant had to prove they were innocent rather than the PO prove their guilt, appalling.😡
 
chickenrunner said:
I was going to recommend watching this for anyone who wants to feel inordinately angry. Plus, if you want to feel even angrier, there is a decent online blog covering the evidence currently being given to the Horizon IT inquiry where various PO legal types and investigators prove they are and were utterly incompetent and conveniently can't recall what went on and their part in it all.
What I can't understand is that people were found guilty of theft or fraud without the PO proving they had taken any money. They simply wheeled out a Fujitsu 'expert' who stated that there were no faults with IT system therefore it was taken that the Sub Postmaster must therefore be guilty, what level of proof is that?!?! It's almost as if the defendant had to prove they were innocent rather than the PO prove their guilt, appalling.😡
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I had not realised until last night that the PO had the authority to carry out their own investigation so the police weren't involved.

I think this must have been a big factor in how this scandal played out.

Would the police have said 'hang on a minute how come all these people decided to commit fraud around the same time?' Wouldn't they have examined bank accounts and spending history to see where the money went. Wouldn't they have listened to queries about the IT system.
 
WilliamMunny said:
It's a disgrace that nobody from the Post Office has been charged with a criminal offence (as yet). Hopefully the public enquiry comes to the proper conclusion that Vennels and others have to be held accountable for ruining the lives of hundreds of innocent people.

She should have been arrested in 2019, but instead she was awarded a CBE. Meanwhile Alan Bates is a shining example of a good human being with a moral compass strong enough to turn down his OBE on principle.
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The usual establishment powers will protect her until she's too old to prosecute, just like they did with the Hillsborough lot
 
Millbrook said:
I had not realised until last night that the PO had the authority to carry out their own investigation so the police weren't involved.
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And this is the standard :rolleyes: of the investigators employed (from the blog I referenced)........................................

Gary Thomas (and this will shock you) started his career in the Post Office as a counter clerk, rising to Crown Office branch manager, before joining the Security Team in 2000. He left in 2012. Thomas therefore worked at the heart of the Post Office’s investigation and prosecution complex for 12 of the 13 years it was prosecuting its Subpostmasters on the basis of Horizon evidence, without ever once bothering to find out for himself just how reliable this IT data was.

Thomas had no previous experience of criminal investigations before joining the security team, but a three week residential course soon put that right. Before long he was carrying out investigations of Subpostmasters. Thomas describes the remaining training he got from the Post Office to be “minimal”
 
Turns out the PO didn't have any special prosecution powers but chose to use the private prosecution provisions available to anyone or company.
 
Unravel_Morrison said:
The main scandal is how long it has taken o come to light and then get to any sort of resolution.

If you have any doubts on how the legal system favours government and the private contractors they employ compared to individuals then this should convince you.
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Agree with the first sentence.
The second point is more affordability rather than bias.
 
Millbrook said:
Agree with the first sentence.
The second point is more affordability rather than bias.
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Well its biased towards who can afford it so I think the point stands.

The PO were able to take out private prosecutions against these people in a way that would be impossible the other way around; especially up to the 2013-15 privatisation.
 
Upsetting but unsurprising.

I remember getting screwed out of money by the pay office in the Army and the callous disregard from the hierarchy that had convinced us all to sign up to delaying a monthly pay increase and collecting as a lump sum at the end of our training. When the time came we were informed that the paperwork hadn't been transferred when we moved from the Army Apprentice College in Harrogate to the school of signals in Blandford. They told us in the most cowardly way possible then hid behind their rank when challenged.

No doubt some **** I'm the pay office worked out a way to fill a black hole in the budget at our expense and likely got a promotion for it.

I wish I could say it was the only example but I saw a lot of crap like it go down and each time there was some excuse or it was blamed on the soldiers themselves.
 
Watched that last night and can only take it as accurate.

Personally thought it was like a horror film.

Serious and distressing bullying of ordinary people by a corporate monster.

There is something funny about it - even 20 odd years ago why can’t a computer system perform basic maths? It wasn’t doing anything complex.

Even now there seems to all sorts of issues actually paying the compensation.

Why?
 
HolgateCorner said:
Watched that last night and can only take it as accurate.

Personally thought it was like a horror film.

Serious and distressing bullying of ordinary people by a corporate monster.

There is something funny about it - even 20 odd years ago why can’t a computer system perform basic maths? It wasn’t doing anything complex.

Even now there seems to all sorts of issues actually paying the compensation.

Why?
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The question that has to be asked is where did the money go?

If you follow the money you'll more than likely find the answer of what happened and why.

I've got one episode left to watch and it smacks to me that someone found a way to skim off the top, a lot of these people were having to make up the shortfalls out of their own money, if the shortfalls weren't real then where did their money go?

People are now talking about a criminal prosecution, this needs to be put in motion ASAP and a proper criminal investigation
 
HolgateCorner said:
Watched that last night and can only take it as accurate.



There is something funny about it - even 20 odd years ago why can’t a computer system perform basic maths? It wasn’t doing anything complex.
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On the contrary, Horizon was a hugely complex system, posting debits and credits to a huge number of accounts in government, corporations, and households. Fujitsu originally designed Horizon for the DSS but eventually it was adapted for use by the Post Office.

Fujitsu had to change the spec so often it turned into a kludge. It was probably never tested properly, and neither the PO nor Fujitsu could reconcile the numbers once it was in operation because of the range of accounts Horizon was working with.
 
Soutra said:
On the contrary, Horizon was a hugely complex system, posting debits and credits to a huge number of accounts in government, corporations, and households. Fujitsu originally designed Horizon for the DSS but eventually it was adapted for use by the Post Office.

Fujitsu had to change the spec so often it turned into a kludge. It was probably never tested properly, and neither the PO nor Fujitsu could reconcile the numbers once it was in operation because of the range of accounts Horizon was working with.
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What you have posted, if you are right, makes it even worse.

One of my in laws worked for Fujitsu in IT at the time and was part of a vast team getting paid a lot of money.

An untested system (I wonder if anybody other than on this forum has admitted that!) resulting in people being bullied and put in jail.

I rest my case your honour.

No excuses I’m afraid, no excuses….
 
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