Labour Welfare Cuts

1finny

1finny

Well-known member
We now have the detail on the cuts to PIPs and some of the other proposals.

I’m trying to be balanced….

Firstly, this is a green paper so subject to lots of discussion and amends before it gets near legislation.
There are some good things about trying to not penalise those who want to try work and investment in the root causes.

I’ve supported Starmer (despite the hamfisted PR) on IHT for farmers, VAT for Private Schools and removing the winter allowance for pensioners.

I’ve also spent many a conversation over the past 12 years or so pointing out that cuts to welfare is a political choice to punch down.
PIPs combined with reduction of foreign aid, IMO, also meet that criteria.

This isn’t about the money - just look at Germany smashing through their fiscal rules with the biggest funded projects since the war. And, they had to beg the Greens for support. Starmer would not have to do this.

If ever there was a case for Reeves to tell us things have changed (defence budget) therefore there is a need to borrow more - it is now.

This is about trying to attract Tory and Reform voters, is a political choice and, IMO, it stinks.

I’ve written to my newly elected Labour MP and will be interested in his response.


www.theguardian.com

Deep cuts, Pip and ‘right to try’ work: the key changes in UK benefits overhaul

Disability and sickness benefits will be reduced, but measures aim to protect the most disabled people
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
1finny said:
We now have the detail on the cuts to PIPs and some of the other proposals.

I’m trying to be balanced….

Firstly, this is a green paper so subject to lots of discussion and amends before it gets near legislation.
There are some good things about trying to not penalise those who want to try work and investment in the root causes.

I’ve supported Starmer (despite the hamfisted PR) on IHT for farmers, VAT for Private Schools and removing the winter allowance for pensioners.

I’ve also spent many a conversation over the past 12 years or so pointing out that cuts to welfare is a political choice to punch down.
PIPs combined with reduction of foreign aid, IMO, also meet that criteria.

This isn’t about the money - just look at Germany smashing through their fiscal rules with the biggest funded projects since the war. And, they had to beg the Greens for support. Starmer would not have to do this.

If ever there was a case for Reeves to tell us things have changed (defence budget) therefore there is a need to borrow more - it is now.

This is about trying to attract Tory and Reform voters, is a political choice and, IMO, it stinks.

I’ve written to my newly elected Labour MP and will be interested in his response.


www.theguardian.com

Deep cuts, Pip and ‘right to try’ work: the key changes in UK benefits overhaul

Disability and sickness benefits will be reduced, but measures aim to protect the most disabled people
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
Worth noting the Tory response at the debate - The cuts don't go far enough


What have we become
 
I'm waiting to see the detail definitely. In the long run we need to be healthier and spend more on prevention than cure. But how do you do that today, without borrowing? We're at the limit of what the markets are willing to take seemingly.

Someone smarter than me can tell me how Roosevelt did it.

One of the reasons I was intrigued in the wealth tax debate which we did on here a while back was I keep seeing it touted as an alternative and I'm not sure how workable it is. Spain is cited as a good example but Dan Neidle had a good thread about its relative effectiveness somewhere recently.

I really dislike the recent decision on cutting international aid again. Realise we need to up defence spending quickly. But cutting aid not the way to go.

As a middle class earner, I'm getting clobbered at every angle. It doesn't seem that the genuinely rich are having the same experience, so I'd be up for them increasing their contributions to match mine relatively. How you go about that is the question I don't have the answer to.

And if we're talking waste, defence procurement is a very grey area.
 
1finny said:
We now have the detail on the cuts to PIPs and some of the other proposals.

I’m trying to be balanced….

Firstly, this is a green paper so subject to lots of discussion and amends before it gets near legislation.
There are some good things about trying to not penalise those who want to try work and investment in the root causes.

I’ve supported Starmer (despite the hamfisted PR) on IHT for farmers, VAT for Private Schools and removing the winter allowance for pensioners.

I’ve also spent many a conversation over the past 12 years or so pointing out that cuts to welfare is a political choice to punch down.
PIPs combined with reduction of foreign aid, IMO, also meet that criteria.

This isn’t about the money - just look at Germany smashing through their fiscal rules with the biggest funded projects since the war. And, they had to beg the Greens for support. Starmer would not have to do this.

If ever there was a case for Reeves to tell us things have changed (defence budget) therefore there is a need to borrow more - it is now.

This is about trying to attract Tory and Reform voters, is a political choice and, IMO, it stinks.

I’ve written to my newly elected Labour MP and will be interested in his response.


www.theguardian.com

Deep cuts, Pip and ‘right to try’ work: the key changes in UK benefits overhaul

Disability and sickness benefits will be reduced, but measures aim to protect the most disabled people
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
Germany have less debt than us of course. They are starting at about 60% - we are at 90%
 
1finny said:
Worth noting the Tory response at the debate - The cuts don't go far enough


What have we become
Click to expand...
It really is a crap choice. And waiting in the wings is something even worse.

I agree it's a (poor in my opinion) attempt to appeal to reform/tory leaning voters.

Now would be the time to prove a different way of governing the country can work. I fear all labour will prove is the Tory way is still **** no matter how much you water it down.
 
Cardiffdaffs said:
As a middle class earner, I'm getting clobbered at every angle. It doesn't seem that the genuinely rich are having the same experience, so I'd be up for them increasing their contributions to match mine relatively. How you go about that is the question I don't have the answer to.
Click to expand...
There are a few suggestions here.
Cardiffdaffs said:
We're at the limit of what the markets are willing to take seemingly.
Click to expand...
Nowhere near. as a AA rated country we are one of the most creditworthy in the world.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Nowhere near. as a AA rated country we are one of the most creditworthy in the world.
Click to expand...
Ooh not so sure about that.

Cardiffdaffs said:
I'm waiting to see the detail definitely. In the long run we need to be healthier and spend more on prevention than cure. But how do you do that today, without borrowing? We're at the limit of what the markets are willing to take seemingly.

Someone smarter than me can tell me how Roosevelt did it.

One of the reasons I was intrigued in the wealth tax debate which we did on here a while back was I keep seeing it touted as an alternative and I'm not sure how workable it is. Spain is cited as a good example but Dan Neidle had a good thread about its relative effectiveness somewhere recently.

I really dislike the recent decision on cutting international aid again. Realise we need to up defence spending quickly. But cutting aid not the way to go.

As a middle class earner, I'm getting clobbered at every angle. It doesn't seem that the genuinely rich are having the same experience, so I'd be up for them increasing their contributions to match mine relatively. How you go about that is the question I don't have the answer to.

And if we're talking waste, defence procurement is a very grey area.
Click to expand...
On defence procurement, we need to move away from the US contractors and fast .
 
Cardiffdaffs said:
Germany have less debt than us of course. They are starting at about 60% - we are at 90%
Click to expand...

Good point
Also far more ‘c’onservative than us.
Their fiscal rules are enshrined in Law.

From what I gather Merz has merely written a new law saying something like the world has changed and we need to borrow more.

Our fiscal rules are in Reeves (and Starmer’s) head

Don’t forget - we don’t necessarily have to borrow more.
Just break one of the other daft rules about income tax increases - these are exceptional times and there is no election for over 4 years.
 
1finny said:
Good point
Also far more ‘c’onservative than us.
Their fiscal rules are enshrined in Law.

From what I gather Merz has merely written a new law saying something like the world has changed and we need to borrow more.

Our fiscal rules are in Reeves (and Starmer’s) head

Don’t forget - we don’t necessarily have to borrow more.
Just break one of the other daft rules about income tax increases - these are exceptional times and there is no election for over 4 years.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. There is no need to kick the vulnerable. They didn't cause our economic mess. There are other ways to get the money needed. By the way, it is NOT welfare. It is Social Security. Welfare is a demeaning word.
 
1finny said:
Sorry, one more thing
Reported that over a million families will be between £4k and £6k worse off a year,
Click to expand...
Presumably all the mps and other leeches will being taking a similar cut to income ? Or even to expenses ? Or even to the subsidised food and drink ?
 
The problem is most people who will be in support of these significant changes and reductions don't realise how meagre benefits actually are, until and unfortunate life changing event occurs and you have to go through a prolonged system and receive very little to survive on if you get through it.

Of course a small number of people will abuse the system and that is where any focus for savings should be, not penalising alot of other people and of course the unpaid millions/billions in personal and corporate tax.
 
sherlock said:
That single sentence sums up everything wrong with the system.
Click to expand...
But it is the system snd it’s the one we have to work with snd through
Instead of just criticising everything how about giving us some of your wisdom and tell us what we should do and how we should do it based on real economic constraints
Student debating society methods don’t work in the adult world
 
Maybe crack down on paying over 8 billion a year on Illegal Migrants and rising.
Maybe crack down on giving our money away to foreign countries
Maybe crack down on the madness that is Net Zero and all the rest of the money they are wasting.
Maybe send the foreign prisoners we have in our jails, back to where they came from, they are not contributing to our system, they are draining it.
 
Alwaysaborolad said:
Maybe crack down on paying over 8 billion a year on Illegal Migrants and rising.
Maybe crack down on giving our money away to foreign countries
Maybe crack down on the madness that is Net Zero and all the rest of the money they are wasting.
Maybe send the foreign prisoners we have in our jails, back to where they came from, they are not contributing to our system, they are draining it.
Click to expand...
Oh my good God
 
Alwaysaborolad said:
Maybe crack down on paying over 8 billion a year on Illegal Migrants and rising.
Maybe crack down on giving our money away to foreign countries
Maybe crack down on the madness that is Net Zero and all the rest of the money they are wasting.
Maybe send the foreign prisoners we have in our jails, back to where they came from, they are not contributing to our system, they are draining it.
Click to expand...
Is it ok for British prisoners to drain the system.
 
Alwaysaborolad said:
Maybe crack down on paying over 8 billion a year on Illegal Migrants and rising.
Maybe crack down on giving our money away to foreign countries
Maybe crack down on the madness that is Net Zero and all the rest of the money they are wasting.
Maybe send the foreign prisoners we have in our jails, back to where they came from, they are not contributing to our system, they are draining it.
Click to expand...
Always the same solution for you boys. It was the Jews to blame slightly less than a century ago in Germany. Now it's 'illegals' that the right wing bullies blame for all of the problems.
 
Alwaysaborolad said:
Maybe crack down on paying over 8 billion a year on Illegal Migrants and rising.
Maybe crack down on giving our money away to foreign countries
Maybe crack down on the madness that is Net Zero and all the rest of the money they are wasting.
Maybe send the foreign prisoners we have in our jails, back to where they came from, they are not contributing to our system, they are draining it.
Click to expand...
You can’t say that on here mate.
Illegal immigration isn’t a problem and it’s not illegal.
Regards welfare cuts, it’s a real shame that the most vulnerable in society may suffer but I agree with the comments regard over diagnosis of certain conditions. There are to many bone idle wasters on the gravy train. I see no option but to tighten the system up. If that gets more people, who are able, to be mobile, fit and in work then that’s great.
 
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