Jack Leslie

Thanks for posting. Never heard that before. Makes you wonder(apart from what main topic of the story is about) how selectors could pick players they obviously had never seen play.
 
I am all for Jack Leslie getting a statue built for him for what he did at Plymouth Argyle, but did anyone look on the other side of the coin and take into consideration the guy who kept him out of the England team against Ireland.

Selectors relied on sending scouts out to watch players, managers recommendations and match reports. It is obvious that they had not seen Jack Leslie play and went on the glowing report his manager had submitted. This is where the racist argument starts.

Billy Walker was playing inside forward for Aston Villa in the 1st division at the time and scored 25 goals in the 1924/5 season and 22 goals in the 1925/6 season. That's not shabby by any standards.

Jack Leslie, who I would argue was discriminated against on a daily basis, was playing centre forward or inside left for Plymouth in the 3rd division and scored 14 goals in the 1924/5 season and 17 in the 1925/6 season. A guy called Jack **** was the leading scorer for Plymouth in 1925/6 with 32 goals.

I know it was a different time and good players could be found at all levels, but would you expect Harry Kane to be dropped for a 3rd division footballer. Was it really the colour of Jack Leslie's skin or was Billy Walker a better player. Only the selectors will ever know.

I am not trying to cast a racist slur against Jack Leslie, but a constructive argument on what might have happened.
 
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During the time Jack Leslie was playing for Plymouth, my grandfather, the son of a West Indian migrant, was a young lad living in South Bank. I always regret that I never asked him what it was like to be one of a handful of black men in a town. Can you imagine how hard it must have been for them to bring a family up under such a strain.

I was once in a pub with him when a man called to him 'how, darkie.' Before this guy knew it, he had him by the throat - he was in his 80's at the time. He was a very proud man who would not let anyone call him and certainly not in front of his grandson.
 
It’s a great story and kudos to the local lads in Plymouth for arranging and running the campaign. It’s got a happy ending hopefully for Jack Leslie’s family.
 
Norman_Conquest said:
I am all for Jack Leslie getting a statue built for him for what he did at Plymouth Argyle, but did anyone look on the other side of the coin and take into consideration the guy who kept him out of the England team against Ireland.

Selectors relied on sending scouts out to watch players, managers recommendations and match reports. It is obvious that they had not seen Jack Leslie play and went on the glowing report his manager had submitted. This is where the racist argument starts.

Billy Walker was playing inside forward for Aston Villa in the 1st division at the time and scored 25 goals in the 1924/5 season and 22 goals in the 1925/6 season. That's not shabby by any standards.

Jack Leslie, who I would argue was discriminated against on a daily basis, was playing centre forward or inside left for Plymouth in the 3rd division and scored 14 goals in the 1924/5 season and 17 in the 1925/6 season. A guy called Jack **** was the leading scorer for Plymouth in 1925/6 with 32 goals.

I know it was a different time and good players could be found at all levels, but would you expect Harry Kane to be dropped for a 3rd division footballer. Was it really the colour of Jack Leslie's skin or was Billy Walker a better player. Only the selectors will ever know.

I am not trying to cast a racist slur against Jack Leslie, but a constructive argument on what might have happened.
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Can only go off what I've read but my understanding was he was told he was playing then with no official reason given suddenly wasn't.

That's a bit different from someone else being picked ahead of him on merit. If it was because they thought Walker was a better player then surely he'd have been in the original 11 to begin with? Not brought in at the last minute. I suppose you can't say 100% why it was changed but seems highly likely it was down to the colour of his skin. If it was just on ability why change it so late in the day?
 
festa5 said:
Can only go off what I've read but my understanding was he was told he was playing then with no official reason given suddenly wasn't.

That's a bit different from someone else being picked ahead of him on merit. If it was because they thought Walker was a better player then surely he'd have been in the original 11 to begin with? Not brought in at the last minute. I suppose you can't say 100% why it was changed but seems highly likely it was down to the colour of his skin. If it was just on ability why change it so late in the day?
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I get what you and the story says about him being dropped for the colour of his skin. The week before the game was the first time they’d had him officially watched and could it just be they didn’t think he was good enough. Had his manager and the local paper made him out to be a superstar he wasn’t.

Look at the cult status Bernie Slaven holds on Teesside, he could score goals for fun, but was Bernie really that good. Why didn’t one of the bigger clubs come in and take him. Was there something they didn’t like about his play.
 
Norman_Conquest said:
I get what you and the story says about him being dropped for the colour of his skin. The week before the game was the first time they’d had him officially watched and could it just be they didn’t think he was good enough. Had his manager and the local paper made him out to be a superstar he wasn’t.

Look at the cult status Bernie Slaven holds on Teesside, he could score goals for fun, but was Bernie really that good. Why didn’t one of the bigger clubs come in and take him. Was there something they didn’t like about his play.
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To be fair there's some detail missing. I'm assuming from the article that the practice at the time was that once you'd confirmed to the players manager/club he was playing then he'd play. Sounds like that's how it was treated given the fanfare they treated it with (reported in the local press etc). But that's only an assumption.

Weird they wouldn't watch players beforehand, but maybe they only watched them once selected to see how they'd fit into the team and understand strengths and weaknesses for the manager to use? Obviously a very different world then.

Probably need a football historian to explain it all really!
 
Lots of good players over the years have been overlooked for England caps, and resentment is inevitable. That Leslie was a div III player should make it one of the least controversial cases.
 
festa5 said:
To be fair there's some detail missing. I'm assuming from the article that the practice at the time was that once you'd confirmed to the players manager/club he was playing then he'd play. Sounds like that's how it was treated given the fanfare they treated it with (reported in the local press etc). But that's only an assumption.

Weird they wouldn't watch players beforehand, but maybe they only watched them once selected to see how they'd fit into the team and understand strengths and weaknesses for the manager to use? Obviously a very different world then.

Probably need a football historian to explain it all really!
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It certainly was different times and something we are all glad that we are trying to move away from - still a long way to go.

Regarding picking players, this will have been done by writing letters and phone calls between the selectors, scouts and managers. You also have to remember that it was also a time when public school boys got picked before working class lads. It wasn't just the colour of your skin that prevented lads playing, it was also the class society.

Wilf Mannion use to tell a story of him sitting on his case on the train whilst travelling to England games and that he was bought a kit bag because he had his boots wrapped up in brown paper. That was some 20 years after Jack Leslie played.
 
The public school boy mention is apt, notice the captain of the N Ireland vs England game, his sole cap, an old Corinthian , would an amateur captain England today??
 
Anton_Berg said:
Lots of good players over the years have been overlooked for England caps, and resentment is inevitable. That Leslie was a div III player should make it one of the least controversial cases.
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But he wasn't overlooked was he? He was selected then dropped. Probably because of the colour of his skin, but if it was for another reason he didn't get an explanation.

There's a difference between that and not being selected in the first place.
 
A div III player from an unfashionable club. Sounds like positive discrimination.

btw cleaning boots is not a punishment, it's a job.
 
Look at our own George camsell only 9 caps yet scored 18 times for England so why only 9 caps.

again not taking anything away from the OP but it was a different era back then and the board of selectors ( as it was the same as cricket back then) were let’s be honest corrupt and self interested in promoting their own players and clubs hence why the likes of camsell were only allowed a few caps.

so it’s shocking but not surprising sadly
 
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