Is it time to give up on the war on drugs in sport?

[MolteniArcore]

Tadej Pogajer, The Danes…..six seconds off a world record, although last year.

Pog wouldn't have won by so much if Roglic didn't crash. Then team tactics take over and people consolidate their 2nd and 3rd positions. It's not as easy to say that just because there was a big gap he was on juice.

The Danes have just been beat by Italy. Failed doping programme right there eh?

Performances get better with time. I'd say the Danes are utilising equipment better and possibly were even breaking the rules over the last few days if anything.

 

[The_Lizards_Jumpers]

So you are telling me that Brailsford saw Froome, decided he was rubbish and signed him anyway? Ok.

And we might be clutching at straws saying his whole medical history is fabricated. I don't even think Armstrong was as clever as that.

No of course he didn't, he saw a cheap "British" capable domestique who he could sign for the Sky launch.

Are you telling me he saw a multiple GT winner in waiting, who he just happened to be offering to other teams in swap deals (Think Vaughters turned him down?) and who then suddenly went from being a very average (obviously in the context of pro cycling) rider with absolutely no track record of success, to suddenly the best cyclist in the world for a few years who could dominate what is still a "dirty" sport with such ease?

Plenty of cyclists have fabricated medical history (Froome's asthma, Wiggins' asthma are just two that spring to mind).

 

[The_Lizards_Jumpers]

Pog wouldn't have won by so much if Roglic didn't crash. Then team tactics take over and people consolidate their 2nd and 3rd positions. It's not as easy to say that just because there was a big gap he was on juice.

The Danes have just been beat by Italy. Failed doping programme right there eh?

Performances get better with time. I'd say the Danes are utilising equipment better and possibly were even breaking the rules over the last few days if anything.

The Danes success is largely down the investment in equipment and aerodynamics driven by Dan Bingham, who Team GB deemed surplus to requirements, and as you say "marginal gains" and flexibility around some of the rules.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Oh, I'm really no expert (I think you regularly thrash me in the FMTTM fantasy cycling leagues ) but I've read a few articles on how times on iconic climbs over the last two years are being smashed or at 2003 levels, but there's not much attention as it's hard to quantify. A few riders (Bernal maybe?) have said that their power levels are the same as a few years ago but now they're struggling to keep up. Found this forum which has some interesting examples.

Even as a fairly casual fan, Pogacar is either the greatest grand tour rider of all time or doesn't pass the sniff test. Padun was more than eyebrow-raising. WVA is a brilliant talent and gets a pass because he's so popular but winning a flat time trial, then a mountaintop finish on Mount Ventoux and then the sprint in Paris on three consecutive days? That's a bit much.

I kind of expected it but it also made me laugh when the cycling team pursuit WR was broken four times in a row the other day.

Cycling has a bad wrap and it's hard to see beyond those dark days but that doesn't mean that every better performance is drug fuelled. I'd bet my mortgage that there is more players doping in the Premier League than there is during a Tour de France race. A few years ago there would be more drug tests in one Tour than there would be for all teams in one Prem League season. Mental eh?

But enough whataboutary - like I said a post or two up, Pog only looked so good this year because Roglic crashed out. It would have been a different race if he hadn't.

WvA could pick and choose his days, he had no leader to protect really and could rest when he wanted. A lot of these wins are totally dependant on how the day pans out. I don't think any of those performances were crazy. And for winning the sprint, there wasn't many sprinters left by then - he only had Cav to beat and as amazing as he did he's on the way down and WvA is on the way up.

And the Pursuit - it's tech - look at them aero strips, aero vests, silly looking bikes etc - that's where the time is coming from.

If EVERYONE was at it someone would slip up, of that I am sure.

 

[MolteniArcore]

No of course he didn't, he saw a cheap "British" capable domestique who he could sign for the Sky launch.

Are you telling me he saw a multiple GT winner in waiting, who he just happened to be offering to other teams in swap deals (Think Vaughters turned him down?) and who then suddenly went from being a very average (obviously in the context of pro cycling) rider with absolutely no track record of success, to suddenly the best cyclist in the world for a few years who could dominate what is still a "dirty" sport with such ease?

Plenty of cyclists have fabricated medical history (Froome's asthma, Wiggins' asthma are just two that spring to mind).

How do you know that they have made up their asthma?

 

[MolteniArcore]

The Danes success is largely down the investment in equipment and aerodynamics driven by Dan Bingham, who Team GB deemed surplus to requirements, and as you say "marginal gains" and flexibility around some of the rules.

We agree there

 

[HiredGun123]

Exactly! I‘ve always said someone like Usain Bolt could be a phenomenon and you’d expect one or two good athletes from Jamaica but suddenly they’re producing 1,2,3’s in the blue ribbon events and wiping the floor with the Americans in the relay…..really?

There’s always been excellent sprinters of Jamaican heritage, but in the past usually competing for other countries.

Linford Christie is our most successful sprinter but born in Jamaica.

It is pretty much a national sport there, so that does a huge way of developing stars. I mean look at the opposite, why haven’t countries as big as China and India produced one world class footballer between them? Simply because it’s not a big a priority there and maybe haven’t got the grassroots and infrastructure in the sport to develop them. Jamaica has those things and it’s a national sport. So there’s no questioning why they’re producing such great sprinters. Especially in the past decade or 2 when they put real investment into it.

still, If I’m being cynical, I think most top athletes in most sports are doping. If you’ve got enough of a status and money etc. Then you’ve probably got the right “doctors” that beat the testing. There’s plenty out there that openly said they know how to get around tests. The athletes that get caught are usually just the ones that mistime the cycle, it doesn’t mean the rest are clean.

 

[r00fie1]

"War" usually ends in death and catastrophe.
The sooner the politicians and others stop creating headlines - the sooner we will be able to look at the issues surrounding drugs - and move forward.

 

[The_Lizards_Jumpers]

How do you know that they have made up their asthma?

Of course I don't but to not question these coincidences would be remiss too.

We'll never know, and as you say about people like WvA and Roglic there's circumstances that you can point to which explain their dominance, but the Froome one is the one that really doesn't sit right with me.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Of course I don't but to not question these coincidences would be remiss too.

We'll never know, and as you say about people like WvA and Roglic there's circumstances that you can point to which explain their dominance, but the Froome one is the one that really doesn't sit right with me.

As time goes on we forget the intricacies of each Tour. Sky had such a strong team back then it made it easier for the leader. That kind of racing appears to be gone for now.

I think Froome is clean. There are some other riders I'm not so sure about but I'd like to think that the majority are legit.

 

[MolteniArcore]

There’s always been excellent sprinters of Jamaican heritage, but in the past usually competing for other countries.

Linford Christie is our most successful sprinter but born in Jamaica.

It is pretty much a national sport there, so that does a huge way of developing stars. I mean look at the opposite, why haven’t countries as big as China and India produced one world class footballer between them? Simply because it’s not a big a priority there and maybe haven’t got the grassroots and infrastructure in the sport to develop them. Jamaica has those things and it’s a national sport. So there’s no questioning why they’re producing such great sprinters. Especially in the past decade or 2 when they put real investment into it.

still, If I’m being cynical, I think most top athletes in most sports are doping. If you’ve got enough of a status and money etc. Then you’ve probably got the right “doctors” that beat the testing. There’s plenty out there that openly said they know how to get around tests. The athletes that get caught are usually just the ones that mistime the cycle, it doesn’t mean the rest are clean.

Jamaica had no anti-doping programme whatsoever when Bolt was in his pomp. And he was faster than his fellow Jamaican sprinters who did get popped. Make of that what you will.

 

[WoodallServices]

Pog wouldn't have won by so much if Roglic didn't crash. Then team tactics take over and people consolidate their 2nd and 3rd positions. It's not as easy to say that just because there was a big gap he was on juice.

The Danes have just been beat by Italy. Failed doping programme right there eh?

Performances get better with time. I'd say the Danes are utilising equipment better and possibly were even breaking the rules over the last few days if anything.

If 18 months ago you’d walked into your house and said ”How did GB get on at the worlds” and the reply was “got thrashed but at least the other team smashed the world record“ how many teams would you have mentioned before you got to Denmark?
As for Pogajer, just because the other Slovenian wasn’t wiping the floor with the worlds best cyclists that proves a point. Don’t get me wrong I like Roglic as he’s in the Alaphillipe mode of riding himself into the ground, but even he MVDP, WVA et all even if they weren’t clean have the decency to look knackered whereas Pog looks like he’s just finished his paper round!
He then brings more suspicion on himself by saying “Look at me I’m a little pretty boy next door…I wouldn’t cheat” when nobody has accused him of anything. Raised eyebrows yes, especially from other cyclists but no outright accusations.