How on earth will we ever get our finances in order?

Nosmo-King said:
You really think being the owner of Boro opens doors? Not sure of that. The days of Rav, The Little Fella, perhaps.
For years we’ve been largely a run of the mill Championship club. And our recognition in today’s game is a pale shadow of what it was.
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Yes, I’m afraid that despite the unfortunate ‘scoffing‘ of one or two of you about my opinion, I do.

I’m not saying he doesn’t support the club in a big financial way and I’m a big fan of Gibson and I have done my bit to help him by buying my season ticket/card for many many years but he has got a lot out of hidden benefit out of it as well.

Do you think for one second that Gibson would be a nationally known person if he hadn‘t been owner of the Boro? You probably wouldn’t even have heard of him on Teesside.
 
As we get very little National coverage let alone International I can’t for the life see how you reach such an assertion.
Any international influence will be driven by the reputation of Bulkhaul.
 
Nosmo-King said:
As we get very little National coverage let alone International I can’t for the life see how you reach such an assertion.
Any international influence will be driven by the reputation of Bulkhaul.
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Just a view I have, and not just about Gibson, look at the exposure Mike Ashley has had, nobody had heard of him before he, as a Spurs fan, bought Newcastle.

Anyway, don’t worry about it, I just think Gibson will have had great value for his investment in the Boro, if you disagree then that’s up to you.
 
Gibson has invested ("put in") £64m in the club in the form of new equity since he acquired complete control back in 93. That is fact.
The Reserves also saw £26m increase in Capital Contribution in 2001 and £21.3m increase in Revaluation Reserve in 2005.
I think it fair to say Gibson O'Neill has put £90m into the Club and created a further £21m.
(I never quite did understand the BskyB investment in clubs way back and how that flowed through and would be interested to learn)

In addition the parent Group now provides Guarantees (Undertakings to Group falling in 1yr) of £116m.

The Club is worth MINUS £86m, having gone a further £31m under with the loss of the last reported financial year to June 2020.

If he withdraws his guarantee (calls money in), then he would effectively close the club down.
He can't sell something that is so far under water and just lost £31m with a £19m turnover.
He has no real choice but to plough on letting losses continue to build up on the Balance Sheet - and guarantee them. And pray for promotion.

Those who think:
1. pulis did a good job with finances (and the wage bill)...
2. We are better off in this league where it is impossible to operate other than in eight figure per year annual losses...
3. Anybody else is going to come in and take the club on in this league...

...are financially illiterate.
Look at the Accounts, they are on record for every season.

Without Gibson (and O'Neill) there is no MFC. That is an absolute fact.
With absolute control and making all the key decisions, Steve has nobody else to blame for the financial position of the club and his investment.

So long as Bulkhaul continues to operate profitably and be strong, then he can continue.
He will obviously use the Group to work tax and effectively will get Tax relief on MFC and Rockliffe losses, but while a loss can generate relief elsewhere, it will offset not eliminate the loss.

Steve is obviously very successful overall and there needs to be no tears cried for him, but as fans we would be without our club if he wasn't.
 
This damning analysis by indeedido backed with financial nouse should be a sobering thought for every Boro fan. To rely on one man for the mere existence of our club is- in all honesty- frightening.
 
fmttmadmin said:
I know it is unpopular to say it but this is the massive scaling back on wages that started under Tony Pulis - and like Warnock, Pulis was actually working directly on this with Gibson and Neil Bausor. It was a massive shunt into reverse but we had to wait to see out contract after contract from the Premier and Monk seasons.
Imagine the losses written off this season and then next as well with season cards rolling over and then Boro's percentage of the £10 season card streaming waived.
I know the last time I spoke at length with Neil Bausor they felt they had the strategy correct going forward - but so much depends on Gibson.
We can now well understand just how livid they were with clubs like Sheff Wed and Derby bending the spirit of FFP. We were struggling against the end of parachute payments and they were creatively spend, spend, spending money they weren't allowed to.
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So what did Pulis actually do to help us achieve this then? I'm not aware of any contracts he renegotiated. He sold a few players but most were easy to sell, they were highly sought after. I don't think you needed Pulis to sell Gibson for £12m for example.

He then blew over £20m (a lot of money by championship standards) on average players with the exception of McNair who he never played anyway. I don't for one second believe Saville is on anything other than above average wages for a championship midfielder, yet he's not an above average midfielder. He's a distinctly average one. Mikel, Hugill and Besic probably cost us a fair whack too for no return.

Pulis apologists come out with this a lot. But I don't see it, other than selling players (which any manager could have done) how exactly is he responsible for sorting out our finances? Because it looks like he took the last of the money we had to gamble with and pretty much squandered it.

If the argument is he told Gibson we needed to cut the wage bill, then duh. Any fan could've told him that. Most fans would've told him to keep Bamford rather than blow £7m on Seville too.

He moans a lot about Monk's transfer dealings, but for me he's not that much better. Both sold players, brought in a lot of money and then wasted it. Pulis just did it on a smaller scale.
 
Nosmo-King said:
This damning analysis by indeedido backed with financial nouse should be a sobering thought for every Boro fan. To rely on one man for the mere existence of our club is- in all honesty- frightening.
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Plenty of others are in this situation though and what can the ordinary supporter do?

Not worth worrying about in my opinion, the game at the top level has been lost to money.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Plenty of others are in this situation though and what can the ordinary supporter do?

Not worth worrying about in my opinion, the game at the top level has been lost to money.
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I doubt very much whether plenty of others outside the PL have this level of nett liability and that is a massive loss posted on a very low turnover.
Thankfully Middlesbrough FC owe Gibson O'Neill and very little to anybody else.

Imagine owning a business that is losing that much money, knowing you can't sell it (or give it away) and can't generate enough money to stop it unless you get promotion.
 
It's been the case for years that there's been dire warnings about clubs going under. Yet there hasn't been a significant collapse at all, bar the odd club.

To me, you can't continue to run a game where a single player earns the equivalent of about 80 season ticket holders seasonal contribution EVERY WEEK. You soon run out of ticket sales money that way. So it essentially comes down to TV, and really it's not been the same since that ITV deal went t*ts up a few years; and advertising which looks like it's going to get swiped away soon if the gambling companies get banned. We've essentially being betting for years that we'd get back into the Prem which would solve the problems - like every club above Wycombe, probably.

I suppose we should be happy for Britt because he'll never have to do a days work in his life, and he's never even played at the top level. I can't imagine he, or most players, have the self awareness to realise the damage they've done.
 
This second biggest financial mistake was wasting all of the parachute payments on duds under Strachan and it acting as a millstone around the clubs for years.

The biggest financial mistake was repeating it under Garry Monk. 🤷‍♂️

We spent £50M ish that closed season mainly on dross. We could have had a better team with better recruitment spending £25M and keeping £25M in the bank.

6 months later Tony Pulis comes in and the cost cutting begins. Beggars belief really.
 
erimus86 said:
This second biggest financial mistake was wasting all of the parachute payments on duds under Strachan and it acting as a millstone around the clubs for years.

The biggest financial mistake was repeating it under Garry Monk. 🤷‍♂️

We spent £50M ish that closed season mainly on dross. We could have had a better team with better recruitment spending £25M and keeping £25M in the bank.

6 months later Tony Pulis comes in and the cost cutting begins. Beggars belief really.
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pulis spent £20m himself really badly.
And the wage bill as a Percentage of turnover went though the roof. He was a big part of the problem.
 
indeedido said:
pulis spent £20m himself really badly.
And the wage bill as a Percentage of turnover went though the roof. He was a big part of the problem.
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Yes. Very badly.

Not sure why the policy of bringing in cheaper, well scouted players to fit a system and the team under Mowbray and Karanka initially got shelved for big money players who everyone who watched the Premier League / Championship knew about. E.g. Assombalonga scores a lot of goals...he's a sure bet. Saville....he's scored a lot of midfield goals at Millwall let's break the bank on him too.
 
indeedido said:
I doubt very much whether plenty of others outside the PL have this level of nett liability and that is a massive loss posted on a very low turnover.
Thankfully Middlesbrough FC owe Gibson O'Neill and very little to anybody else.

Imagine owning a business that is losing that much money, knowing you can't sell it (or give it away) and can't generate enough money to stop it unless you get promotion.
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Yes but what can the normal supporter do?

I like watching the local non league teams but also feel I can’t desert the Boro despite my annoyance at Britt and others stealing a living.

And is it really Britt’s fault, the whole system at the top level is a mess.

Gibson can’t walk away and neither can the likes of me.
 
Holgate Corner, we all have an emotional connection with the club, that isn’t in question or relevant with respect.
What is being questioned is the financial hole we’re in. The indebtedness is mind boggling and if examined forensically would probably show we are in the worst financial position of any club in the league- Derby may have debts but look like they have got a buyer lined up?

Gibbo is the saviour but, arguably, is also the sinner.
 
Nosmo-King said:
Holgate Corner, we all have an emotional connection with the club, that isn’t in question or relevant with respect.
What is being questioned is the financial hole we’re in. The indebtedness is mind boggling and if examined forensically would probably show we are in the worst financial position of any club in the league- Derby may have debts but look like they have got a buyer lined up?

Gibbo is the saviour but, arguably, is also the sinner.
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Don’t disagree with you but personally I feel totally powerless to do anything about it so therefore I can’t bring myself to worry about it.

It is what it is, we have made some bad signings in recent years.

Makes it quite surprising Warnock has signed up for another year.
 
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