Ingleby_Flash
Well-known member
There isn’t have a look and check
How gullible is the "average" person?
- Thread starter festa5
- Start date
I'm not defending Johnson. I'm saying people that think the bus is the reason anyone voted brexit are being gullible.
No. as I said, I am not a Tory. Never was, never will be. I'm not going to pretend that there is only one way to run a country though and I accept that other people have different ways of measuring that than I do.
People spouted it because we did pay a fee to be members of the EU and if we didn't pay a fee we could spend that money on something else. That bit wasn't a lie. The lie on the bus was that £350m was a gross figure and not a net figure.
There was dishonesty everywhere. That's politics, unfortunately. As long as you can get away with not outright lying but bending the truth or omitting something then they will do it. It is scummy and it is why nobody really trusts politicians. However, on the opposite side of the debate we had Cameron and Osborne championing remain who if I am not mistaken are the people to blame for the austerity you mentioned on the previous post and who I wouldn't trust if they told me that the grass was green. The remain lot had plenty of media and business backers as well. All those businesses that benefited from the low wages that unlimited immigration brings for example. There are very few people with the power to influence that do it selflessly so it is hard to trust anyone. I don't think anyone that believes something a politician, business leader, expert etc says is true is necessarily gullible and there are plenty of people that think they are fully switched on that are still easily manipulated including you and me.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Nobody is saying otherwise. We are looking at costs and benefits and effects of the last 14 years and how people gullibly bought into something that is proven to have not materialised. You started to discuss economic conservatism as being something only the tories can deliver......but that isn't what they delivered at all, provably so. It's gullible to presume the last 14 years was about economic conservatism, the tory party is not conservative anymore, not economically it's closer to theft via libertarianism .
Yes it was, because that payment was buying something with net gains. It didn't create a surplus of £350m which is what the message intended to show, it created a net loss to our economy and the exchequer. so it was a lie.
That's a weak argument, the impact on the economy was modelled as best-medium-worst case. The right wing media just scoffed at it and then said it was a lie if it didn't meet teh worst case predictions.
even a broken clock is right twice a day. I'll play the subject matter, not the people on any individual subject. Yes Cameron is an ass, but he wasn't wrong saying remain was a good strategic direction.
Selling something as negative is easier, selling change is easier. It always has been. It was pure demonisation and fanaticism. It's easy to fantasise about the benefits of something not been done before, the remain campaign was keep the status quo, we know the benefit it brings, but that isn't sexy.
festa5
Well-known member
I didn't say you were defending Johnson. In fact not sure how you've reached that conclusion.
The point is things can be proven to be lies and people will still believe them regardless.
The accuracy of the figure on the bus was never the point. You'd have to be pretty gullible to think it was.
Millbrook
Well-known member
There is you know. See post 40 at the bottom of page 2.There isn’t have a look and check
Frozen Horse
Well-known member
I don't think anyone has suggested all Brexiteers were gullible racists.
Some were racist, but not gullible
Others were gullible but not racist.
Others were neither. Some businesses did ok out of Brexit; their owners may just have voted on self interest.
As for the bus, the leave campaign must have believed it would make a difference or they wouldn't have handed the world a stick to beat them with.
I don't think it was putting it on a bus which made a difference; it was circulating that message in a variety of media during their campaign.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
I have seen a number of financial scandals since 1988 where the general public and a number of financial professionals have fallen for mis selling.
Endowment mortgages - in the late 1980s - 93% mortgages were endowment in 1988 I researched them and decided they were expensive and quite high risk, but people bought them in their millions. ow no one buys one - people were gullible in the past to trust what they were told.
In the 1990 and 2000s - PPI - it was obvious to me it was expensive and some people did not need it, but most bought it with their loans and mortgages.
2010 to now - Car finance plans - most are expensive and most people are obtaining cars on them now.
Cryptocurrencies - 2016 to now - likely to be a speculative bubble , but young people in particular are piling in, OK some have made a lot of money, but it can't continue.
The EU Referendum vote for many people (in my opinion) was an emotional vote an anti-Governments vote often borne out from anger and frustration.
Endowment mortgages - in the late 1980s - 93% mortgages were endowment in 1988 I researched them and decided they were expensive and quite high risk, but people bought them in their millions. ow no one buys one - people were gullible in the past to trust what they were told.
In the 1990 and 2000s - PPI - it was obvious to me it was expensive and some people did not need it, but most bought it with their loans and mortgages.
2010 to now - Car finance plans - most are expensive and most people are obtaining cars on them now.
Cryptocurrencies - 2016 to now - likely to be a speculative bubble , but young people in particular are piling in, OK some have made a lot of money, but it can't continue.
The EU Referendum vote for many people (in my opinion) was an emotional vote an anti-Governments vote often borne out from anger and frustration.
£350m vs £250m makes very little difference to most people's perception - they both fall into the category of 'a large number'. Leave could have achieved the same impact without exaggeration. here's a reasonable subreddit on why:
Eli5 Why are we so terrible at comprehending large numbers?
Redwurzel
Well-known member
FH
"Others were neither. Some businesses did ok out of Brexit; their owners may just have voted on self interest."
Some individuals have also benefitted not just businesses - I saw an advert for UK lorry drivers on Wednesday by Culina - the pay was £51,000 a year. Those that have benefitted may keep a low profile.
"Others were neither. Some businesses did ok out of Brexit; their owners may just have voted on self interest."
Some individuals have also benefitted not just businesses - I saw an advert for UK lorry drivers on Wednesday by Culina - the pay was £51,000 a year. Those that have benefitted may keep a low profile.
festa5
Well-known member
Barely over halfway towards a decent salary then (apparently).
Unravel_Morrison
Well-known member
LGV/HGV Class 1 CAT C+E Chilled Drivers
Company Description: Culina Logistics provides integrated supply chain services and expertise for food & drink products that require strict refrigerated temperatures.At Culina we have a winning culture, we believe that our culture is one of the reasons our company continues to thrive… A place...
Laughing
Well-known member
This is very true, and I alluded to this earlier. We are all gullible or trillions wouldn't be spent on advertising.
Doom_On_Horseback
Well-known member
Without wanting to invoke ire or discontent (or start another thread), can we see any positives as a result of Brexit?
Honest question. Not being facetious
Honest question. Not being facetious
Laughing
Well-known member
Not the way it was executed no.
FishofContemplation
Well-known member
This is perhaps a pedantic rather than a substantive point, but project fear was pretty much invariably used as a reference by Brexiteers to the catastrophising of Remainers. It may be open to debate how many of those catastrophes came about. But it is self evident that almost no Brexiteers believed in them.
Last edited:
FishofContemplation
Well-known member
Also as you saw in the Channel 4 documentary which may be fiction, but on this point ran true, why not use the bigger number if it makes the political point better?
We do the same in football for players salaries. We quote gross salaries, not net, and we quote weekly numbers not annual, because we think that makes footballers sound more outrageously well-paid. They are paid net, not gross and they are almost certainly not paid in folding stuff once a week. But we still do what we do. Is it misleading? Probably. Is it technically incorrect? No.
BoroMart
Well-known member
An anti-government vote, brought about by about 80% of the current sitting government
TeessideCleveland
Well-known member
The cult of Trump
Abel Tasman
Well-known member
The internet has certainly tooled them up to spread their grifting certainly.
BoroMart
Well-known member
That’s probable maximum gullibility