Holodomor - Russia has previous in Ukraine

Red_is_best

Red_is_best

Well-known member
I had not heard of this before. Absolutely staggering and horrific to think history is repeating itself. The means may be different but the intent is the same. Shameful.

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This was pure communism in action - collectivation of all farms - no private farming was allowed. Of course grain production dropped as there was less incentive to work hard and the managers were generally poorer at their job than previous owner-managers. Stalin also wanted to punish Ukraine for fighting the Red Army in the Russian Civil War 1919-21.

What amazed me was that 4.5m Ukrainians fought in the Red Army in 1941-5.
 
Redwurzel said:
What amazed me was that 4.5m Ukrainians fought in the Red Army in 1941-5.
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What would you have expected? Barbarossa was an existential war for Ukraine, Georgia, Bylorussia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Russia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. The other seven might have been existentially threatened if these nine fell.
 
Redwurzel said:
This was pure communism in action - collectivation of all farms - no private farming was allowed. Of course grain production dropped as there was less incentive to work hard and the managers were generally poorer at their job than previous owner-managers. Stalin also wanted to punish Ukraine for fighting the Red Army in the Russian Civil War 1919-21.

What amazed me was that 4.5m Ukrainians fought in the Red Army in 1941-5.
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With all due respect, this wasn't to do with communism, grain production was increasing exponentially at that time. Output overall was increasing due to technological advances. This was entirely about pushing Ukrainians.

Blaming this on the economic system is just letting the Soviet leadership off the hook for how evil this action was. Negative effects of their economic system didn't really materialise until the 70s and 80s.
 
That's not true, what period are you referring to?

Despite the initial plans, collectivization, accompanied by the bad harvest of 1932–1933, did not live up to expectations. Between 1929 and 1932 there was a massive fall in agricultural production resulting in famine in the countryside. Stalin and the CPSU blamed the prosperous peasants, referred to as 'kulaks' (Russian: fist), who were organizing resistance to collectivization. Allegedly, many kulaks had been hoarding grain in order to speculate on higher prices, thereby sabotaging grain collection. Stalin resolved to eliminate them as a class. The methods Stalin used to eliminate the kulaks were dispossession, deportation, and execution. The term "Ural-Siberian Method" was coined by Stalin, the rest of the population referred to it as the "new method". Article 107 of the criminal code was the legal means by which the state acquired grain.[23]
 
Same_as_before said:
That's not true, what period are you referring to?

Despite the initial plans, collectivization, accompanied by the bad harvest of 1932–1933, did not live up to expectations. Between 1929 and 1932 there was a massive fall in agricultural production resulting in famine in the countryside. Stalin and the CPSU blamed the prosperous peasants, referred to as 'kulaks' (Russian: fist), who were organizing resistance to collectivization. Allegedly, many kulaks had been hoarding grain in order to speculate on higher prices, thereby sabotaging grain collection. Stalin resolved to eliminate them as a class. The methods Stalin used to eliminate the kulaks were dispossession, deportation, and execution. The term "Ural-Siberian Method" was coined by Stalin, the rest of the population referred to it as the "new method". Article 107 of the criminal code was the legal means by which the state acquired grain.[23]
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There was one bad harvest, yes, but grain production, and food production in general increased on average across the Soviet Union. If you look at the 20s to 30s, food production increased and following the famine food production continued to increase until the war.

This we a deliberate, evil act of genocide. Claiming that it came down to the economic system providing a disincentive to work completely undermines just how evil it was.
 
Great movie called Mr Jones, which is about the starvation on Ukrainians in the 1930's, so that their wheat crops could be used to support the Russian economy.
 
When did it improve?

During the Famine of 1932–33 it's estimated that 7.8–11 million people died from starvation.[54] The implication is that the total death toll (both direct and indirect) for Stalin's collectivization program was on the order of 12 million people.[53] It is said that in 1945, Joseph Stalin confided to Winston Churchill at Yalta that 10 million people died in the course of collectivization.[55]

I am trying to find evidence that it improved.
 
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