Greenwood and Silvera

[BoroMart]

He really isn’t useless. No matter how much you say it on this thread but feel free to repeat it again. His goal contributions alone this season effectively negate that throw away comment. I’d give him preseason bedding in with his new colleges (there will be a few) and see how he goes next season before considering offloading. There have been a number of players written off by fans in the past who’ve gone on to good things.

He's probably a mid-level League One quality player right now, he may or may not improve from that.

It has been a large step upwards for him, a steep learning curve. I actually feel his best performances have been at CF, he has pace and ,makes decent runs. His biggest issue out wide is that he takes the full back on every time, even when there is additional cover or a simple pass to a player in space. He also tries to shift and shoot when marked closely, I've lost count of the number of blocked shots he has had. He rarely gives and goes, or works to create before going at the full back, or does a double shift before shooting. That probably worked in what was effectively a league two level A League, but you need to be a bit smarter at championship level.

He does have the pace and acceleration, and the odd trick, I'd have no problem with him being our 4th of 5th choice winger, with maybe 5-8 starts max. but he isn't good enough to be a starter right now.....but then at 700k he was never intended to be. He will have improved over the season, with better training, but he's another that needs some specific work over the summer.

 

[B_G]

Isiah Jones has played 200 more minutes than Greenwood and only has 1 more goal contribution. Does the same argument apply? or is it just a jump on the bandwagon thing?

Issiah Jones isn't really productive enough either though, in fact him and Greenwood are the two least productive players in the squad who play in that attacking 3, which is why I often say I would prefer Forss in the team. We haven't had enough goals from those 3 positions behind the striker this season.

Goals + Assist / 90 Mins

Forss - 0.73
Rogers - 0.55
Crooks - 0.53
Silvera - 0.43
Azaz - 0.41
McGree - 0.36
Jones - 0.34
Greenwood - 0.33

Compared to 22/23

Akpom - 0.87
Ramsey - 0.81
Watmore - 0.74
Forss - 0.69
Crooks - 0.65
Jones - 0.30
McGree - 0.27

 

[Abel Tasman]

He's probably a mid-level League One quality player right now, he may or may not improve from that.

It has been a large step upwards for him, a steep learning curve. I actually feel his best performances have been at CF, he has pace and ,makes decent runs. His biggest issue out wide is that he takes the full back on every time, even when there is additional cover or a simple pass to a player in space. He also tries to shift and shoot when marked closely, I've lost count of the number of blocked shots he has had. He rarely gives and goes, or works to create before going at the full back, or does a double shift before shooting. That probably worked in what was effectively a league two level A League, but you need to be a bit smarter at championship level.

He does have the pace and acceleration, and the odd trick, I'd have no problem with him being our 4th of 5th choice winger, with maybe 5-8 starts max. but he isn't good enough to be a starter right now.....but then at 700k he was never intended to be. He will have improved over the season, with better training, but he's another that needs some specific work over the summer.

I think you are right. Have been on before to say I like him and saw enough in the A League the previous season to know he has talent. Maybe you are right he may not adapt at all but I think he is capable of being coached and improve on the things you point out and I have no doubt our coaching team are working on those weaknesses you rightly identify.

 

[Sidmartin]

He really isn’t useless. No matter how much you say it on this thread but feel free to repeat it again. His goal contributions alone this season effectively negate that throw away comment. I’d give him preseason bedding in with his new colleges (there will be a few) and see how he goes next season before considering offloading. There have been a number of players written off by fans in the past who’ve gone on to good things.

​

He really isn’t useless. No matter how much you say it on this thread but feel free to repeat it again. His goal contributions alone this season effectively negate that throw away comment. I’d give him preseason bedding in with his new colleges (there will be a few) and see how he goes next season before considering offloading. There have been a number of players written off by fans in the past who’ve gone on to good things.

id place him on par with Neil Warnocks experiment Toyosi Olusanya who came on in the 66th minute against Blackburn in Sept 2021 , ran 10 yards with the ball was tackled, fell over and was never seen again in the first team. I watched him several times in the under 23's thereafter and he was more intelligent than Silvera has shown to be , more skilful and just as fast. He ended up at St. Mirren after 4 months here . Our model as changed since then where players simply not good enough are given far far longer to prove something, in the hope they come good , especially with an injury crisis. In Silveras case its been in the first team, so he's been very fortunate as all I can see is a very limited poor quality footballer.

 

[Ash88]

Issiah Jones isn't really productive enough either though, in fact him and Greenwood are the two least productive players in the squad who play in that attacking 3, which is why I often say I would prefer Forss in the team. We haven't had enough goals from those 3 positions behind the striker this season.

Goals + Assist / 90 Mins

Forss - 0.73
Rogers - 0.55
Crooks - 0.53
Silvera - 0.43
Azaz - 0.41
McGree - 0.36
Jones - 0.34
Greenwood - 0.33

Compared to 22/23

Akpom - 0.87
Ramsey - 0.81
Watmore - 0.74
Forss - 0.69
Crooks - 0.65
Jones - 0.30
McGree - 0.27

It's an irrelevant comparison because these 90 min stats include the minutes that are played as an oncoming sub.

Silvera for example has played less than 15 minutes in 12 games.

If we're going by stats per minute... Does Alex Gilbert have the highest assists per 90 mins in the team this season?

The more competition for places in these positions would mean more players get shorter appearance time to try and make an impact - so the stats would inevitably go down if they don't.

 

[B_G]

It's an irrelevant comparison because these 90 min stats include the minutes that are played as an oncoming sub.

Silvera for example has played less than 15 minutes in 12 games.

If we're going by stats per minute... Does Alex Gilbert have the highest assists per 90 mins in the team this season?

It's not irrelevant though is it.

Gilbert does have the highest but he also has such a small sample size that you could discount it. You could potentially argue that point with Ramsey as well. But playing over 1000 minutes is a reasonable sample size.

Jones output stats have been consistent over 3 seasons with over 6000 minutes played.

 

[BoroMart]

Issiah Jones isn't really productive enough either though, in fact him and Greenwood are the two least productive players in the squad who play in that attacking 3, which is why I often say I would prefer Forss in the team. We haven't had enough goals from those 3 positions behind the striker this season.

Goals + Assist / 90 Mins

Forss - 0.73
Rogers - 0.55
Crooks - 0.53
Silvera - 0.43
Azaz - 0.41
McGree - 0.36
Jones - 0.34
Greenwood - 0.33

Compared to 22/23

Akpom - 0.87
Ramsey - 0.81
Watmore - 0.74
Forss - 0.69
Crooks - 0.65
Jones - 0.30
McGree - 0.27

great stats, of course this seasons stats have been effected by not having a striker to 'assist' for about 20 games. But yes Forss above Jones every time. I'll give Azaz some slack as he is still settling in, and has scored 10 and got 7 assists across the season, which isn't bad.
A full season of Forss, Azaz and Lath (big ask for all threee to stay fully fit) could yield 50 goals which would take us a long way to where we need to be, probably need 25 across the rest of the squad. Jones as a an impact sub could be vital. As vital as getting a bit of pace quality and goal threat on the left. Wonder if Ramsey will be fit and available again?

 

[Sidmartin]

Issiah Jones isn't really productive enough either though, in fact him and Greenwood are the two least productive players in the squad who play in that attacking 3, which is why I often say I would prefer Forss in the team. We haven't had enough goals from those 3 positions behind the striker this season.

Goals + Assist / 90 Mins

Forss - 0.73
Rogers - 0.55
Crooks - 0.53
Silvera - 0.43
Azaz - 0.41
McGree - 0.36
Jones - 0.34
Greenwood - 0.33

Compared to 22/23

Akpom - 0.87
Ramsey - 0.81
Watmore - 0.74
Forss - 0.69
Crooks - 0.65
Jones - 0.30
McGree - 0.27

Statistics aside the difference between Jones v Greenwood and Silvera is that Jones has credit in the bank based on what he has done and what he can do over 3 seasons. He's been very average for nearly 12 months but he had proven he was a very good footballer and major asset. He was very good from day one and got even better. You could see teams were wary of him and you could imagine opposition managers saying " watch Jones ". I'm sure they would set up to nullify him. Commentators would sing his praises before most matches, so he obviously had made a name for himself.
Can you see opposition managers saying " watch Greenwood " or " watch out for Silvera " ? Have you ever heard any Commentator sing their praises or earmark them out before a game starts?

Jones is in a lull but he was good and may come just as good again.

Greenwood and Silvera have no credit in the bank over a period of time ( yet ) and if either of them ever garner the same acclaim Jones has had , i'll do a Bernie Slaven in Binns window ( if it ever opens again )

 

[indeedido]

It's an irrelevant comparison because these 90 min stats include the minutes that are played as an oncoming sub.

Silvera for example has played less than 15 minutes in 12 games.

If we're going by stats per minute... Does Alex Gilbert have the highest assists per 90 mins in the team this season?

The more competition for places in these positions would mean more players get shorter appearance time to try and make an impact - so the stats would inevitably go down if they don't.

He’s got 4 league goals this season.
3 of them came as a sub where he played a max of 18 mins.
Without sub appearances then Silvera’s Goal involvement stats will be very very poor.

 

[B_G]

He’s got 4 league goals this season.
3 of them came as a sub where he played a max of 18 mins.
Without sub appearances then Silvera’s Goal involvement stats will be very very poor.

It was actually @Ash88 who brought up the goal involvements on the thread. He compared Greenwood to Jones as an argument for Greenwood.

Then claimed its irrelevant when I brought more players into the discussion to give a bigger picture. Couldn't write it .

Last season we had a lot of goalscorers in the team. For the majority of the second half of the season we had Archer with at least 2 of Ramsey, Forss and Akpom behind him in most games. McGree wasn't as productive but he brought something else to the team and we had enough other goal scorers in the team.

We just haven't players who are as productive this season. We've been massively reliant on Lath's goals recently. If Jones is going to play then he needs two really productive players in the No10 and LF position to make up those goals. Or we play Forss and use Jones as an impact sub which I think is the better option.

 

[Ash88]

It was actually @Ash88 who brought up the goal involvements on the thread. He compared Greenwood to Jones as an argument for Greenwood.

Then claimed its irrelevant when I brought more players into the discussion to give a bigger picture. Couldn't write it .

Last season we had a lot of goalscorers in the team. For the majority of the second half of the season we had Archer with at least 2 of Ramsey, Forss and Akpom behind him in most games. McGree wasn't as productive but he brought something else to the team and we had enough other goal scorers in the team.

We just haven't players who are as productive this season. We've been massively reliant on Lath's goals recently. If Jones is going to play then he needs two really productive players in the No10 and LF position to make up those goals. Or we play Forss and use Jones as an impact sub which I think is the better option.

That only fits your narrative. Here's what really happened...

Greenwood has played 38 games. Its a law of averages if he constantly plays in a forward position that statistically he will score and assist.

Isiah Jones has played 200 more minutes than Greenwood and only has 1 more goal contribution. Does the same argument apply? or is it just a jump on the bandwagon thing?

I was pointing out that you can't use one argument for Greenwood and say he's rubbish/not good enough, but not use the exact same argument for Jones.

-------

I totally agree that our players this season are not as productive as last, but Akpom/Archer/Ramsey are £10 million players - it was always going to be an impossible task to replace them.

Is Silvera good enough to be in our starting 11? - Definitively not.

However, we're not Man City, we can't afford to have a squad of 25 players who are all capable of smashing the league, which some of you think we should have.

Is Silvera good enough to be in our 25 man squad? - Yes, he is.

 

[B_G]

That only fits your narrative. Here's what really happened...





I was pointing out that you can't use one argument for Greenwood and say he's rubbish/not good enough, but not use the exact same argument for Jones.

It doesn't just fit my narrative. You posted a stat to prove a point. I just added more context to it. You brought Jones into the thread but what you were doing is comparing one player who hasn't produced enough against another.

Jones brings other qualities to the team that Greenwood doesn't though.

I totally agree that our players this season are not as productive as last, but Akpom/Archer/Ramsey are £10 million players - it was always going to be an impossible task to replace them.

Is Silvera good enough to be in our starting 11? - Definitively not.

However, we're not Man City, we can't afford to have a squad of 25 players who are all capable of smashing the league, which some of you think we should have.

Is Silvera good enough to be in our 25 man squad? - Yes, he is.

It's not an impossible task though is it. We, as a club, have decided not to go down that same route this season. We still could loan high value players. We've chosen not to.

 

[BoroMart]

Jones is Jones, he has some gapping holes in his technique at times, it can break down, he can have a terrible first touch, he can push and run it out of play, and of course his shooting technique is relatively poor and his crossing technique is inconsistent. But when he is on it, he's unstoppable too.

For me, he is a great squad player, but probable will always be a little short in consistency for what we want for a first choice winger.

 

[Ironops]

Im afraid Ive not seen anything from Silvera to suggest he's any good - I hope Im wrong but he was cheap and is probably on small wages. Greenwood looked a proper player earlier in the season but hasnt done anything in a while, but is probably on good money so would be more of a risk. Leeds didnt farm him out coz he was consistently brilliant.

Id send Silvera out on loan next season and send Greenwood back

 

[Ash88]

It doesn't just fit my narrative. You posted a stat to prove a point. I just added more context to it. You brought Jones into the thread but what you were doing is comparing one player who hasn't produced enough against another.

That was exactly what I was doing... I don't see the why there's a disagreement there?

This thread is about Greenwood not being good enough. My original point was his stats are directly comparable to Jones who most fans think is good enough.

Jones brings other qualities to the team that Greenwood doesn't though.

This is your opinion. Carrick is consistently selecting Greenwood ahead of other players, so his opinion is they are both bringing qualities to the team.

It's not an impossible task though is it. We, as a club, have decided not to go down that same route this season. We still could loan high value players. We've chosen not to.

You can only say this with the power of hindsight after the loan signings haven't worked out.

Lewis O'Brien was a high value loan signing, it just hasn't worked out as well as we hoped, and Luke Thomas is the most valuable LB in the league (or at the very least top three).

 

[B_G]

This is your opinion. Carrick is consistently selecting Greenwood ahead of other players, so his opinion is they are both bringing qualities to the team.

Lack of options. Through fitness and recruitment.

Azaz, McGree and Forss have played in front of him when available. The only player he seems to regularly be selected in front of is Silvera.

You can only say this with the power of hindsight after the loan signings haven't worked out.

Lewis O'Brien was a high value loan signing, it just hasn't worked out as well as we hoped, and Luke Thomas is the most valuable LB in the league (or at the very least top three).

O'Brien aside, we have taken players who have been considered surplus at Clubs we are supposed to be trying to compete with. What did we expect.

 

[Ash88]

Lack of options. Through fitness and recruitment.

Azaz, McGree and Forss have played in front of him when available. The only player he seems to regularly be selected in front of is Silvera.

I'll give you McGree - I'd have him as first choice in that position.

but Forss has never played LW this season - and every time Azaz has played LW, Greenwood has started the same game as a CF.

The only period Greenwood was out of favour - was the 4 games we switched to 5-3-2 - as soon as we switched back to 4-2-3-1 (Carrick's preferred formation) - he was straight back in the team.

O'Brien aside, we have taken players who have been considered surplus at Clubs we are supposed to be trying to compete with. What did we expect.

Unfortunately for us, although you like to think we are competing, we're just in same league. The Leicester squad is valued at £180-200 million.

 

[B_G]

I'll give you McGree - I'd have him as first choice in that position.

but Forss has never played LW this season - and every time Azaz has played LW, Greenwood has started the same game as a CF.

Greenwood has played right across that forward 3 as has Silvera. We have 8 players who can play there and it's fluid. It's not as simple as saying Greenwood is LW. Apart from Jones and Forss who have played pretty much exclusively RW, the others have been flexible.

Greenwood is behind at least 4 of them on that list and he was behind Rogers and Crooks when they were here.

Greenwood
Silvera
Jones
McGree
Forss
Azaz
Gilbert

Unfortunately for us, although you like to think we are competing, we're just in same league. The Leicester squad is valued at £180-200 million.

We could aim higher like we did last season and Hull have this season. If we had Carvalho and Philogene instead of Silvera and Greenwood, we would be much more equipped to compete

 

[Ash88]

We could aim higher like we did last season and Hull have this season. If we had Carvalho and Philogene instead of Silvera and Greenwood, we would be much more equipped to compete

Philogene was dropped from the Stoke team last season and then was pretty average for Cardiff.

It's very easy to compare players when you've got hindsight on side. We should have just signed Gyokeres when he went to Coventry for £1.2 million then all our problems would be solved.

 

[BoroMart]

Philogene was dropped from the Stoke team last season and then was pretty average for Cardiff.

It's very easy to compare players when you've got hindsight on side. We should have just signed Gyokeres when he went to Coventry for £1.2 million then all our problems would be solved.

Philogene was hot and cold, but he had just turned 20 when he went on loan to Stoke, he improved when he went to Cardiff, and he had an excellent pre-season with Villa. I said back in the summer we should have been all over getting him in, before he kicked a ball for Hull. If e can identify a player of his quality for the left, to balance out Lath, Azaz and Forss, we will be potent next season.