France Bans full length dresses in Schools

zzzzz said:
Terrible. A state attack on one Religion.

Pandering to Madame Le Pen and the far right.

www.bbc.co.uk

France to ban female students from wearing abayas in state schools

The education minister says female Muslim students will not be allowed to wear the loose-fitting robe.
www.bbc.co.uk

Will they ban crucifix's on chains?
Click to expand...

Crucifix's are already banned if on open display, but can be worn under clothing.

On the surface what you say might make sense, but it's more complicated than that.

My partner is a teacher in a french state school with a large arab population. She is also politically on the left and is very much for women’s rights, although I wouldn’t describe her as a feminist. She is very much for this measure.

What people outside schools do not see is summed up by this paragraph from the article:

"Secularism means the freedom to emancipate oneself through school," Mr Attal told TF1, arguing the abaya is "a religious gesture, aimed at testing the resistance of the republic toward the secular sanctuary that school must constitute."

She agrees with this and is convinced that there is a subtle long-term strategy by in particular the Muslim Brotherhood to nibble away at the edges of secularity in schools. The far left, and particularly Melanchon's party, NUPES, have unknowingly aided this process by their opposition to measures like those proposed.

She says there is some good reading on this subject, but unfortunately only in french, so I can’t say I’ve read it first-hand.

The Samuel Paty beheading was a turning point for many french teachers and the lack of support from the far left and Education Nationale has stung. The fact that many french teachers now admit to self-censoring in class on anything approaching religion is telling.
 
Women have worn modest clothing whether an abaya or loosely fitting clothes for centuries, around the world and not just in France. How is it now the case that the sole aim of wearing an abaya is to test the resistance of secular France? The more "secular" France pushed minorities into a corner the more it risks alienating people. For a supposed forward thinking and inclusive society they certainly know how to create a divide.

Funny how France are so big on freedom of speech, freedom to insult others religions and beliefs, yet they allow little to no freedom on what people can wear, which is also a form of expression for many.
 
zzzzz said:
Terrible. A state attack on one Religion.

Pandering to Madame Le Pen and the far right.

www.bbc.co.uk

France to ban female students from wearing abayas in state schools

The education minister says female Muslim students will not be allowed to wear the loose-fitting robe.
www.bbc.co.uk

Will they ban crucifix's on chains?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the attack is coming from the left as well, the traditional dress of some communities has long caused a stir in France, and liberals just as much as racists will get in a stir about it.When my misses went to Lille university on her Erasmus and then her masters I realised when I was meeting her group that they saw traditional dress as a threat to women's rights and unwanted imposition by men, and stupid me got into an argument about it, it's really hard ( for me anyway) to put into words the experiences I have had amongst friends over here and their own attitude and belief to their own dress, you try to explain that to a group of intellectuals who believe they are right and believe they are defending women's rights and you are on to a loser.
 
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Some great first hand responses @exeterboro and @pierrequiroule to what, as usual with me, appears from your comments, to be a lot more complicated than I first thought.

I get that it's religiously symbolic but if a non religious girl may elect to wear a "loose fitting robe", would they be flouting the law? If not and they were sat next to a muslim girl who wasn't allowed to wear one would that be right? Just seems a step too far to me.

"there is a subtle long-term strategy by in particular the Muslim Brotherhood to nibble away at the edges of secularity in schools."

And this has fed that extremism without doubt. And these French (yes the majority of this generation were born in France) girls will feel genuine anger at the State, even those that may not elect to wear "loose fitting robes" will also feel genuine anger at the removal of their freedom to choose.

Don't you feel that in a way Abdoullakh Abouyezidovich Anzorov has acheived more in his heinous crime than he could have imagined, having driven the State deeper into non-tolerance and religious apartheid?
 
Don't really get this one at all.

France doesn't have mandatory school uniforms, and it's not like the ban on face coverings which there's at least an understandable logic to limiting it.

It's an item of clothing, it doesn't impact anybody else and it doesn't prevent communication or identification.

One of those extreme viewpoints that France has, though there are obviously people in this country who would support it.
 
TeaCider said:
Don't really get this one at all.

France doesn't have mandatory school uniforms, and it's not like the ban on face coverings which there's at least an understandable logic to limiting it.

It's an item of clothing, it doesn't impact anybody else and it doesn't prevent communication or identification.

One of those extreme viewpoints that France has, though there are obviously people in this country who would support it.
Click to expand...
France has had a ban on wearing items promoting religious adherence in schools since the 19th C. Yarmulkes, kippas are also banned. The ruling is controversial because it declares that the garment IS a religious dress, which some Muslim authorities dispute.
 
zzzzz said:
Some great first hand responses @exeterboro and @pierrequiroule to what, as usual with me, appears from your comments, to be a lot more complicated than I first thought.

I get that it's religiously symbolic but if a non religious girl may elect to wear a "loose fitting robe", would they be flouting the law? If not and they were sat next to a muslim girl who wasn't allowed to wear one would that be right? Just seems a step too far to me.

"there is a subtle long-term strategy by in particular the Muslim Brotherhood to nibble away at the edges of secularity in schools."

And this has fed that extremism without doubt. And these French (yes the majority of this generation were born in France) girls will feel genuine anger at the State, even those that may not elect to wear "loose fitting robes" will also feel genuine anger at the removal of their freedom to choose.

Don't you feel that in a way Abdoullakh Abouyezidovich Anzorov has acheived more in his heinous crime than he could have imagined, having driven the State deeper into non-tolerance and religious apartheid?
Click to expand...
The beheading happened in 2020, I was visiting Lille from 2013 to 2016. The scope of the terror attacks in Paris, Nice and other cities was extreme, going back a few years I feel the threat of terror has maybe made individuals retreat to positions or views that are less inclusive but paradoxically they can't admit to that and use freedom of expression terms to support their terror affected views.
 
JackG said:
France has had a ban on wearing items promoting religious adherence in schools since the 19th C. Yarmulkes, kippas are also banned. The ruling is controversial because it declares that the garment IS a religious dress, which some Muslim authorities dispute.
Click to expand...

This is the crux of the matter whether you agree with the restriction or not. The simple fact is that France operates a system of secularism in schools, so if you believe that the abaya (and similar garments) have a religious context, then they have no place in schools. The Quran itself states amongst other instances “O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to wrap over themselves of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.” It does not state the abaya by name because different countries have other names for similar clothing.

TeaCider, if you want to ‘get’ this then look up the meaning of laïcité and how it came about in the french revolution. It’s interesting.

zzzzz I think you again need to be actively involved in the education system to see what is happening on the ground. Dominique Schnapper in the video on your original link (despite the leading questions of the interviewer) gave an example of this ‘choice’ in the example of parents trying to prevent their daughters sitting next to boys in school, which also serves as another example of nibbling at the edges. Whilst some girls may see this measure as a removal of their freedom of expression, you only have to see them being met at the school gates by their ‘brothers’ and changing into their abayas for the walk home to at least question this.
 
Good on them.

Schools should always maintain a secular environment to ensure all students feel welcome and equal. If we allow religious attire, it might give the impression of favouring a particular religion and it would only lead to divisions among students. If exceptions are made, it will only create a perception of special treatment, meaning even more tensions and inequalities. Also, has anyone thought about the cultural implications? Religious clothing is the antithesis of integration.

I feel for people who are subject to this barbaric, outdated, man-made dogma that is Islam. The same can be said for Christianity, and other theologies that should have no place in modern society. It's about time the West pushes back against these fanatics who want to impose their religious doctrines and customs into their societies. It doesn't stop with clothing and symbols, many Muslims demand for Sharia, which is essentially totalitarianism and is as equally fascistic as the Catholic right-wing (fascism). If you are going to have a truly secular society, you need a separation of religious norms and customs. If Muslims in France are genuinely upset by this, then why reside in France? And why should France alter the fabric of its secularism to accommodate the feelings of a minority of people?

The sooner religion is consigned to the dustbin of history, and is replaced properly by science, philosophy and nature, the better.
 
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