TheYorkshireTerrier
Well-known member
It's a case of desperation from both sides i.e. club and the manager.
Failure being rewarded
- Thread starter ForssAwakens
- Start date
WilliamMunny
Well-known member
Semantics aside, eventually every manager will be deemed a failure if all that is required is a season of regression.
Smith took over Villa in 15th place in the Championship and got promoted that same season.
Second season they stayed up in 17th place but also got to the League Cup final.
Third season they finished 11th with 55 points.
Fourth season he was sacked after 10 games with the team in 16th.
I'm not saying Villa were wrong to sack him, but he had 3 consecutive seasons of progression then a bad 10 games. He probably took on the wrong job at the wrong time with Norwich, but his success over 3 seasons at Villa shouldn't be disqualified because of a bad year at a Norwich, who also have failed to improve since he was replaced.
I'll revert back to the example of Unai Emery. He came to Arsenal with a great pedigree and was sacked after 13 games of his second season with the club in 8th place. It would be easy to say that he failed in English football and therefore shouldn't be given another chance, but Aston Villa looked at his other achievements and are now reaping the benefits.
Ironops
Well-known member
Both strange appointments - Smith got villa promoted but then nearly relegated, despite spending nearly £150m, Lampard looks out of his depth at pub league level.
I strongly suspect Leicester will be relegated, Chelsea have a first team squad of 41 players - both look terribly ran clubs
I strongly suspect Leicester will be relegated, Chelsea have a first team squad of 41 players - both look terribly ran clubs
ForssAwakens
Well-known member
We are looking in these examples at consecutive failures, not just one. Wilder when he came to boro had one failure at sheff utd, but after then failing with boro you’d expect to rebuild your reputation.
His failure has be rewarded getting a bigger job at Watford (although not so sure that it’s a reward managing them)
Emery didn’t go on to be rewarded with what was deemed a bigger job than arsenal. Could argue villa is a step down from villareal too
The thoughts with these latest 2 appointments is a failure after a deemed failure.
Ipad1977
Well-known member
That's ruling out the steadying the ship hand of Venables, but you're right and the main point still stands.
Ipad1977
Well-known member
Especially when each club he manages has to undergo a name change when it gets prefixed by the words "Frank Lampard's". The cost of all the rebranding must be astronomical.
Cardiffdaffs
Well-known member
Lampard is just a filler until the summer. He can’t seriously be considered a long term appointment and is there probably because he won’t upset the Apple cart and upset their precious playing staff.
muniz
Well-known member
considering most managers run at a team ends with bad results that does not mean they should never get another job, there's more to playing the manager game than just getting results, the ones that get work again and again are often those best at networking and maintaining relationships, and usually the ones who frame things as not their fault constantly in pressers rather than keeping it real and telling the truth lol,
also its not always the managers fault things dont work out
often its easy to see the board is at fault as well as players
the managers who get the most jobs know how to show/spin this in their favour too.
often helps with the availability of managers at the time, as the ones they may really want may well be in jobs and not ready to leave, end of season may be different, may not but someone else may be there to chose from.
but there isn't usually a great deal of really good unemployed successful managers, most are already in jobs
also its not always the managers fault things dont work out
often its easy to see the board is at fault as well as players
the managers who get the most jobs know how to show/spin this in their favour too.
often helps with the availability of managers at the time, as the ones they may really want may well be in jobs and not ready to leave, end of season may be different, may not but someone else may be there to chose from.
but there isn't usually a great deal of really good unemployed successful managers, most are already in jobs
Frozen Horse
Well-known member
Agreed
My point was that it is more understandable that some managers keep getting jobs than local administrators etc.
muniz
Well-known member
all down to them knowing how to play the managers political game, those who speak up out of line are often those that get one or more jobs and then no one wants them, like keane
WilliamMunny
Well-known member
We'll have to agree to disagree on our respective definitions of failure. Chris Wilder took over a Sheffield United side that had finished 11th in League One. He got them promoted as Champions with 100 points in his first season. Second season they finished 10th in the Championship, then got automatic promotion as runners up the following season. Fourth season they finished 9th in the Premier League. Fifth season he admittedly left them stranded at the bottom of the Premier League, but they were in a far better place than when he took over. You see his time at Sheffield United as a failure, I see it very much as a success. Similar with Smith at Villa, who left them far better off than he found them.
Otto42
Well-known member
Smith has done reasonably well everywhere except Norwich, I imagine Leicester fans being a bit underwhelmed by the appointment, but the hierarchy there probably didn't envisage relegation and sacking Rodgers a month or so ago. They'll probably re-assess in the summer, depending on which division they are in.
Lampard's only got this job because it's Chelsea. He did ok at Derby and kept Everton up last year, I admire him for trying his luck at management, he could easily have taken the easy money as a 'pundit' like cousin Jamie.
Management is a real merry go round these days and more than ever it's about knowing the right people.
Lampard's only got this job because it's Chelsea. He did ok at Derby and kept Everton up last year, I admire him for trying his luck at management, he could easily have taken the easy money as a 'pundit' like cousin Jamie.
Management is a real merry go round these days and more than ever it's about knowing the right people.
Ipad1977
Well-known member
Ie the complete opposite to a Keane; A Curbishley if you will.
Frozen Horse
Well-known member
I'm not really following you there; Curbishley only ever had 2 managerial jobs and did a great job in the first one. Did you mean Pardew maybe?
ForssAwakens
Well-known member
I agree that he was a success at Sheffield turf , his ultimately failed in his last season and then went onto fail again in his next job
muniz
Well-known member
near enough all football managers fail in their last season at a club, not many people get sacked after being very successful in the role lol
having a season go bad costing you the job does not mean you should be excluded from getting another manager job ever again. there would be near enough no managers to pick from if that was the case lol.
your past good work counts probably more than the bad spirals of results that cost you the jobs in the end when teams are looking to appoint you.
after all every club knows there is often great differences between every club and its not always 100% the managers fault they fail.
Now him getting sacked for taking sheff utd down is fair enough and should not take away from the good he did there in the seasons prior,
as opposed to how he conducted himself while working for us where after april his behaviour and results got him actually terminated and has clearly been a hinderance in him getting another job, and why watford only gave him a contract for months not a year plus
I'm not a fan of him no more after how he acted for us, but you can't dismiss all his successes as well before sheff utd too. he will get plenty more jobs, he may be watford manager next season, he may leave in the summer and probs will have done enough for another championship chance on a proper contract. he will be a good manager as long as he has learnt his lesson and wound his neck in with how he reacts to the board instead of working with them. if he continues to causes problems he will struggle to get work even more
i guarantee gibbo has let every owner that he speaks to when they have asked about him know what he was like, and thats why he never had another job for such a long time when there was plenty of jobs he would of got if just left under the usual mutural consent
Expat Smoggie
Well-known member
I’d had laugh when Frankie Lampard was reinstated last week — old boys club or what? Not to mention Chelsea were going nowhere before the Potter arrived so I’m not sure what was the issue (with Potter) apart from the obvious. (Can’t score)
I’m sick of seeing this situation in the leagues as it will deter coaches making the transition into management. To prevent the turnover I think the EPL should put a limit on how many a club can hire and fire in any one season.
Ipad1977
Well-known member
I think I did, though ironically enough they both caused the absolute minimum fuss. Pardew's biggest controversy came against us I remember when he had the gall to wiggle his ar$e?
Remember they were both getting mentioned for every single vacancy that came up for a few years...
LowMoorBoro
Well-known member
Look at some managers in Italy, they get sacked repeatedly before going onto success.
Ancelotti was sacked from Parma, then went to Juve got sacked and his next job was Milan.
I’m not saying Smith or Lampard will be a success, just this thing happens throughout football.
Ancelotti was sacked from Parma, then went to Juve got sacked and his next job was Milan.
I’m not saying Smith or Lampard will be a success, just this thing happens throughout football.
