BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
In this country we jail people who report war crimes and protect those who commit atrocities.
Ex Nazi Guard to stand trial
- Thread starter The_Unicorn
- Start date
r00fie1
Well-known member
Nazi Camp Guards were brutal, vicious, callous, murderous bullies.
Jewish captives were chosen to supervise the camp brutality and push their own dead into lime pits.
They were called "Kapo" - [Traitors] by their fellow Jews.
They watched with loaded weapons cokked, as they forced living prisoners to empty the ovens of the bodies of gassed women. children and men.
They carried out the role of firing squads - shooting prisoners who fell on top of their fellow dead - then set them alight as the bodies turned to fat and gristle in the heat.
Only those "special" soldiers were chosen as camp guards and trained with Hitlers Storm Troopers - The SS.
They were integral to the industrial murder of Jews, dissenters, those with mental and physical disabilities, the sick and infirm, babies and gypsys.
No one was exempt.
As they starved and murdered millions - they lived a comfortable life with their families and friends - away from the crack of a rifle butt on the head of screaming prisoners.
They were b***ds.
General Paton was a hardened war General - even he couldnt believe the horrors they found.
Gaurds and camps were measured by their "performance" - by the numder of murders-per-day - and if they were deemd too "slow", they were under pressure to increase the speed of the lines of death into the gas chambers. In some cases the Guards worked a three - shift system, 24/7 to keep the bodies burning.
We learn the lessons of history today and ignore them at our peril.
Jewish captives were chosen to supervise the camp brutality and push their own dead into lime pits.
They were called "Kapo" - [Traitors] by their fellow Jews.
They watched with loaded weapons cokked, as they forced living prisoners to empty the ovens of the bodies of gassed women. children and men.
They carried out the role of firing squads - shooting prisoners who fell on top of their fellow dead - then set them alight as the bodies turned to fat and gristle in the heat.
Only those "special" soldiers were chosen as camp guards and trained with Hitlers Storm Troopers - The SS.
They were integral to the industrial murder of Jews, dissenters, those with mental and physical disabilities, the sick and infirm, babies and gypsys.
No one was exempt.
As they starved and murdered millions - they lived a comfortable life with their families and friends - away from the crack of a rifle butt on the head of screaming prisoners.
They were b***ds.
General Paton was a hardened war General - even he couldnt believe the horrors they found.
Gaurds and camps were measured by their "performance" - by the numder of murders-per-day - and if they were deemd too "slow", they were under pressure to increase the speed of the lines of death into the gas chambers. In some cases the Guards worked a three - shift system, 24/7 to keep the bodies burning.
We learn the lessons of history today and ignore them at our peril.
SmallTown
Well-known member
That's probably because he burnt them all...
Norman_Conquest
Well-known member
I read Damien Lewis book SAS Nazi Hunters, and one of the things that stood out for me was how the Allies used a lot of war criminals as spies after the war. One guy who was responsible for numerous special forces deaths had been was supposedly hung by the Yanks, witnessed by the French and was issued a death certificate. It came to light that he was still alive and spying for the Americans.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Atrocities were also carried out in some cases by ordinary German solders on the Eastern Front before the camps were set up. They were heavily conditioned to believe Jews and Gypsies etc were a disease as though they had some sort of plague. Some Nazis/fascists even thought being left wing was a psychological disorder, Franco in Spain was in this camp. Interestly in Spain not one supporter of Franco has ever been sent to prison to my knowledge. There is one former Police officer nicknamed Billy the Kid because he used to like swivelling his pistol on his forefinger during questioning. A group of people in Spain are trying to prosecute for murders and torture in the 1960s and 70s. They have to do it in Argentina as the Spanish authorities say it is not possible under the "Pact of Forgetting" in Spain. The murders were generally young students in police cells, many are now disabled from their interrogation. Brits quite happily enjoyed their holidays in the Costos while this was going on. Billy the Kid has run New York marathons and won medals for his police work post Franco, although he is probably is in his late 70s/early 80s now. Watch a documentary film called Silence of Others for more details if you are interested.
An issue with Jimmy Saville was that he was not influenced by anyone else he knew what he was doing was wrong and illegal and he continued to do it over 25 years? He also used his influential positions to abuse and even developed position with the halo effect to give him some protection. I don't think a young person working at a concentration camp say doing the accounts is in the same analogy category, although they were party to the activities of the camp and new mass killings were taking place. A recent prosecution was a former accounts clerk. Quite a few guards (in particular) were non German such as people from Ukraine, Baltic States where death pogroms of Jewish people had occurred in the late 19th century).
The Nazis were very good at delegating jobs to different people, so someone body rounded jewish people up for a train journey, someone took a precise and detailed inventory, someone put them on the train, someone drove the train, someone divided them up off the train, some escorted them with dogs to the gas chambers, someone poured the gas crystals down a drain hole in the roof, the kapos did the most dirty work around the gas chambers dealing with the dead bodies the burning the debris etc. Most of the Kapos were Jewish and most of them were eventually killed too. its all horrendous I know.
An issue with Jimmy Saville was that he was not influenced by anyone else he knew what he was doing was wrong and illegal and he continued to do it over 25 years? He also used his influential positions to abuse and even developed position with the halo effect to give him some protection. I don't think a young person working at a concentration camp say doing the accounts is in the same analogy category, although they were party to the activities of the camp and new mass killings were taking place. A recent prosecution was a former accounts clerk. Quite a few guards (in particular) were non German such as people from Ukraine, Baltic States where death pogroms of Jewish people had occurred in the late 19th century).
The Nazis were very good at delegating jobs to different people, so someone body rounded jewish people up for a train journey, someone took a precise and detailed inventory, someone put them on the train, someone drove the train, someone divided them up off the train, some escorted them with dogs to the gas chambers, someone poured the gas crystals down a drain hole in the roof, the kapos did the most dirty work around the gas chambers dealing with the dead bodies the burning the debris etc. Most of the Kapos were Jewish and most of them were eventually killed too. its all horrendous I know.
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Until the issue of superior orders is resolved, I don't think it's worthwhile pursuing prison camp guards. At this late stage it's just revenge, not justice. Can anyone say, definitively, after the passage of at least 76 years what this guy did?
And if he is tried, then surviving soldiers and officials in other armies - mainly the Red Army - should be prosecuted as well.
Not trying the guy might seem like a bad decision, but others are even worse.
And if he is tried, then surviving soldiers and officials in other armies - mainly the Red Army - should be prosecuted as well.
Not trying the guy might seem like a bad decision, but others are even worse.
What a ridiculous reply.
The man is still alive.
Jedi boro
Well-known member
Not at that level they weren’t as this is why the Nuremberg excuse was so utterly dismissed. The SS weren’t the Wehrmacht so in order to be in the SS you had to be a zealot of the party and it’s ideology.
Jedi boro
Well-known member
They were not soldiers the SS were a completely separate branch.
They all took a blood oath.
Jedi boro
Well-known member
Corco65
Well-known member
War anywhere is a tragedy, there are no real winners. The way Jewish people were systematically viewed and treated is beyond sickening.
It is also difficult to put yourself in a real war situation and knowing what you would do or what you are capable of, horror becomes normalised and accepted.
You could also be in a position of if you don't do something, then your children or family at at risk and that risk is real, it's a horrible dilemma and one you hope we will never be in, how do we know how we would respond under such duress.
If he has been part of carrying out atrocities and did so willing without what would now be classed as radicalisation, then he should still be punished. If he was radicalised believing what he was doing was right and proper and carrying it out under instruction then perhaps some form of lesser punishment. How this can be proved or not with the passage of time I do not know.
In some situations what can be more painful for the perpetrator is forgiveness, as they cannot comprehend how people can be so strong or understand why, and there horrors they have committed continue to haunt them.
By
As with slavery and how black people were systematically treated, as a human race we never seen to learn, with lots of suffering continuing around the world and people living under persecution, brutality, absolute poverty or dictatorships.
We must all continue to try and challenge injustice and discrimination of others even at its lowest level, such as booing at anti racist stance, or the acceptance of statues that commeroruate people who were part of or associatied with mass murder should remain in place.
We can learn from history, it's not too late but we have to pick the right leaders and put aside perceived absolute self interest in order to avoid future distruction, hopefully bit by bit we can all make the world a better place for all.
It is also difficult to put yourself in a real war situation and knowing what you would do or what you are capable of, horror becomes normalised and accepted.
You could also be in a position of if you don't do something, then your children or family at at risk and that risk is real, it's a horrible dilemma and one you hope we will never be in, how do we know how we would respond under such duress.
If he has been part of carrying out atrocities and did so willing without what would now be classed as radicalisation, then he should still be punished. If he was radicalised believing what he was doing was right and proper and carrying it out under instruction then perhaps some form of lesser punishment. How this can be proved or not with the passage of time I do not know.
In some situations what can be more painful for the perpetrator is forgiveness, as they cannot comprehend how people can be so strong or understand why, and there horrors they have committed continue to haunt them.
By
As with slavery and how black people were systematically treated, as a human race we never seen to learn, with lots of suffering continuing around the world and people living under persecution, brutality, absolute poverty or dictatorships.
We must all continue to try and challenge injustice and discrimination of others even at its lowest level, such as booing at anti racist stance, or the acceptance of statues that commeroruate people who were part of or associatied with mass murder should remain in place.
We can learn from history, it's not too late but we have to pick the right leaders and put aside perceived absolute self interest in order to avoid future distruction, hopefully bit by bit we can all make the world a better place for all.
Expat Smoggie
Well-known member
How will it be a fair trial — prisoner won’t have all his faculties so it’s kind of slanted. Agreed on all those involved should be convicted but unfortunately the law has changed over the years so killers etc can get away with things.
HarryVegas
Well-known member
Have you met him?
Same_as_before
Well-known member
I would lock up everyone who helped him hide.
S7DiscoDown
Well-known member
The SS swore aligance to Hitler where as the regular army to the German flag.
I only know that as watched something the other night. It was really 'interesting' how the True SS (pure blood German before they let anyone in) simply wouldn't surrender. Thousands killed in various battles despite being completely out numbered. Just fight to the death. I'm not glorifying it but that's some mindset
I only know that as watched something the other night. It was really 'interesting' how the True SS (pure blood German before they let anyone in) simply wouldn't surrender. Thousands killed in various battles despite being completely out numbered. Just fight to the death. I'm not glorifying it but that's some mindset
r00fie1
Well-known member
In 2007 I interviewed a lady who was 97 and had been interned by the Nazis in Treblinka Death Camp.
She was stripped and placed in prisoners clothing - with the Star of David sewn on the top.
She was a mother in her 30s when she had the Nazi`s number tatooed on her arm.
She survived and managed to escape joining the pile of bones and corpses of the murdered innocents.
I was amazed at how articulate she was and how vivid and detailed her description of the camp and how she was treated.
The notion that being old makes the former Nazi almost senile is crap.
For her sake I pray he goes on trial.
Whilst he has lead a stable life - the families who lost a generation to the firepits, firing squads and Zyklon B, have had to endure the nightmare over, and over, and over, again.
Justice does not just have to be seen to be done.
It has to be done for the sake of humanity.
She was stripped and placed in prisoners clothing - with the Star of David sewn on the top.
She was a mother in her 30s when she had the Nazi`s number tatooed on her arm.
She survived and managed to escape joining the pile of bones and corpses of the murdered innocents.
I was amazed at how articulate she was and how vivid and detailed her description of the camp and how she was treated.
The notion that being old makes the former Nazi almost senile is crap.
For her sake I pray he goes on trial.
Whilst he has lead a stable life - the families who lost a generation to the firepits, firing squads and Zyklon B, have had to endure the nightmare over, and over, and over, again.
Justice does not just have to be seen to be done.
It has to be done for the sake of humanity.
Priv
Well-known member
Did not know that, fair enough I stand corrected.
Same_as_before
Well-known member
Roofie, that's brought tears to my eyes.
But I hope you would agree that it must be a fair trial.
There's so much emotion wrapped in this issue (quite understandably) that it's very difficult to try someone when he, and any surviving witnesses are close to 100 years old.
I'm not pleading his innocence but it's very hard to be dispassionate and objective about something so dreadful that happened so long ago.
"Justice must be blind but it should not be deaf".
Spot on. If he is guilty he needs to spend whats left of his time behind bars. Justice and history demands it.