Energy in public ownership

When I used the word constant I don't mean constant supply I mean constantly available. Supply is variable because demand is variable, when you turn on a load the generators ramp up when you turn it off they ramp down. Wind & solar are completely the opposite, the available supply ramps up & down dependent on wind speed & sun strength.



The increase in utility charges started last year long before the war in Ukraine. One of the reasons for this was there was less wind production than expected (modelled) meaning more gas had to be burnt leaving Europe's gas storage levels lower than required. This led to a rush for coal & gas which of course drove prices higher.

Weak winds worsened Europe's power crunch

Wind and solar are not cheap when you have to have other forms of generation to back them up & this will be even more the case when we phase out the current cheapest alternative of gas. Buying back up power is very expensive. National Grid spent over a billion pounds on balancing the grid last year. Not all of this can be put down to wind & solar but a fair proportion.


Do you really believe that it's "extremely unlikely" that there could be an area of high pressure sitting over Europe in the winter? I've been out in the North Sea in the middle of winter when it's like a mill pond with hardly a breath of wind. Now I'm not saying it's like that very often but if it's going to happen once you need 100% back-up. Very costly building all that plant you are only going to use every now & again.




Why bring in gas when we have a load of it beneath our land & sea?



Can you think of a reason why we have less demand? Is it because we have become so much more efficient or is it because we have shifted so much production out of the country with part of the reason being high energy costs.
Wind and Solare are not "constantly available", they actually inverse each other, to a degree, but they don't need to be largely available with the right balance of these and other sources.

They are largely available thgouh, and largely predictable seasonally, and locally more predictable a week or so in advance, and they're also high output and cheap when they are available (which is most of the time). A week should be enough time to ramp up other sources, like constantly avialible renewables, Gas, and Nuclear etc.

Yes, little wind will do that to prices to some degree, but it was also demand spiking as we came out of covid, the whole world was trying to recover from shutting down. But the previous sustained highs were nowhere what we're seeing now, and the gas was there to back it up. Previous was nowhere near the problem of what we're facing now/ have been, but the trend for the gas price is up, and wind and solar are down.

Cheaper wind and Solar cover the cost of the other backups, when they're working well the other 90% of the time. We've always had nuclear, and it's always been expensive, we pay a big price for that insurance, but we can use cheap and excess wind and solar to completely nullify these when production is high (which is a lot more common than when production is low). Like I say, even exporting it, or putting it into less efficient storage methods, until some better storage method is found (and it will be). Again, there's other more expensive renewables to provide backup, or more nuclear capacity.

The wind average for the year is around 6GW, only one-week last winter went below that (4.4GW), it didn't stop for a week, and we're not going to get high pressure sitting over us for weeks on end in the middle of winter, and even if we did we would probably be getting a small amount of solar benefit, or very mild weather, reducing demand. But like I say, we can turn the gas on, nothing saying we can't turn it on, until we have the storage sorted, we could probably cut yearly gas use by 90% in the next decade, maybe even quicker, with the levels of wind/ solar we could have (which remain profitable). If most places did that then there would be an abundance of gas available for cheap, no need to rely on Putin.

We have enough gas for ~5 days use, in storage currently, and I read we've already green-lit doubling that by next winter (adding on 50% more now I think), of course, no need to stop LNG imports either, and the exporters aren't likely to stop. We shouldn't have disposed of the storgae we already had mind, this was lunacy, we did it too early.

I suppose if we don't need to largely rely on gas then we don't need to be going looking for more it, all of the easy reserves have been tapped, only the more expensive or mort controversial (fracking) remain. It might just be cheaper to get from abroad, under normal circumstances (not now of course).

We're certainly becoming more efficient and less wasteful, it's undenable, but yes, production has gone down too, which is expected to happen as we're a developed nation, and can't compete on cost with the developing nations. We can't do anything about China growing into a massive manufacturing superhub, and loads of others will likely follow suit. We don't have the natural resources to stay being a major manufacturer, and I don't think people will be up for being paid £1 an hour. Our energy demand from the grid will continue to trend down.
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Wind and Solar are being used a marginal supply source, opposed to core. If they become the core we need storage options. There is no way round that.

We could start using wave which is pretty reliable because of tides, without storage. I assume wave has not been commercially viable to date, but with current high prices possibly this has changed?

One problem is planning 10 years ahead with expensive capital projects when energy prices are all over the place. Someone has to take on the risk.
Yup, but there are already less efficient storage options which currently exist at grid level, which we can use (pumped storage for one). There was no point doing this when wind and solar was 20p, because at 50% efficiency it's effectively costing 40p plus, 10x that of gas.
But now offshore wind and solar are around 4p (and no reason to go up, and will likely come down). This inefficiency becomes easily acceptable (at say 8p), rather than paying 50p for nuclear or 50p for gas etc. Cheap can beat inefficiency.

Obviously, this becomes even better when better (more efficient) storage options come out, which they will, it gets better every year and there are potentially major breakthroughs on the horizon. These need to be a lot more "natural" than conventional batteries mind, thermal storage looks to be something which could be easy and cheap, especially small scale like for commercial premises, doing most of the donkey work for the heating etc.

I think Wave/ Tidal power is expensive (3-5x the cost of offshore wind, probably 10x onshore wind and solar), and in the best areas it's going to be subject to some pretty extreme wear/ conditions. The moon isn't going away mind, and if it does we're probably screwed anyway :LOL:
 
Not exactly reliable then? Do you take the take gamble of waiting until 11:30 to set off & risk not getting there or do you waste 3 hours of your day by setting off early?
Why did you ignore the rest of what I posted?

It's a hybrid, I have not ever said otherwise, I've not said cut the gas or turn off nuclear, biomass, energy from waste or using less efficient storage methods etc. We use the cost-benefit we get 90% of the time, to make up for the 10% when it's not as good as we want it to be.

Just like Gas is a hybrid now, if we turned everything else off you would only have 60% of your power (and no gas).

If I gave you a petrol car with no petrol in it, when would you set off on your 300 mile trip? See, it's a daft example, as it's not realistic to anything I've mentioned.

We've already done it with Coal, and we did that when renewables were more expensive. Why do you think Gas is any different, especially now when the renewable price has come down (and will go down further), and the gas price has been jacked up? Will gas ever go to 4p per kWh again (call that 8p for power), as gas turbines are only around 50% efficient.
 
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We could start using wave which is pretty reliable because of tides

I don't like to be rude but this is about the standard I would expect from a politician.

Waves are created by wind passing over the water and therefore have the same, plus additional, draw backs as wind.
 
With the massive scramble for renewable energy sources what is to be said about the side effects ? For example look at the mass wind turbine blade graveyards that being dug due to them not being recyclable, or the devastation and carbon footprint created to garner the precious metals required for battery production.

I work in the oil and gas industry and look forward to a do when oil is only used to produce other products rather than used as a fuel.
 
I don't like to be rude but this is about the standard I would expect from a politician.

Waves are created by wind passing over the water and therefore have the same, plus additional, draw backs as wind.
Waves and a tide are two completely different entities.
 
Wind and Solare are not "constantly available", they actually inverse each other, to a degree, but they don't need to be largely available with the right balance of these and other sources.

They are largely available thgouh, and largely predictable seasonally, and locally more predictable a week or so in advance, and they're also high output and cheap when they are available (which is most of the time). A week should be enough time to ramp up other sources, like constantly avialible renewables, Gas, and Nuclear etc.

Yes, little wind will do that to prices to some degree, but it was also demand spiking as we came out of covid, the whole world was trying to recover from shutting down. But the previous sustained highs were nowhere what we're seeing now, and the gas was there to back it up. Previous was nowhere near the problem of what we're facing now/ have been, but the trend for the gas price is up, and wind and solar are down.

Cheaper wind and Solar cover the cost of the other backups, when they're working well the other 90% of the time. We've always had nuclear, and it's always been expensive, we pay a big price for that insurance, but we can use cheap and excess wind and solar to completely nullify these when production is high (which is a lot more common than when production is low). Like I say, even exporting it, or putting it into less efficient storage methods, until some better storage method is found (and it will be). Again, there's other more expensive renewables to provide backup, or more nuclear capacity.

The wind average for the year is around 6GW, only one-week last winter went below that (4.4GW), it didn't stop for a week, and we're not going to get high pressure sitting over us for weeks on end in the middle of winter, and even if we did we would probably be getting a small amount of solar benefit, or very mild weather, reducing demand. But like I say, we can turn the gas on, nothing saying we can't turn it on, until we have the storage sorted, we could probably cut yearly gas use by 90% in the next decade, maybe even quicker, with the levels of wind/ solar we could have (which remain profitable). If most places did that then there would be an abundance of gas available for cheap, no need to rely on Putin.

We have enough gas for ~5 days use, in storage currently, and I read we've already green-lit doubling that by next winter (adding on 50% more now I think), of course, no need to stop LNG imports either, and the exporters aren't likely to stop. We shouldn't have disposed of the storgae we already had mind, this was lunacy, we did it too early.

I suppose if we don't need to largely rely on gas then we don't need to be going looking for more it, all of the easy reserves have been tapped, only the more expensive or mort controversial (fracking) remain. It might just be cheaper to get from abroad, under normal circumstances (not now of course).

We're certainly becoming more efficient and less wasteful, it's undenable, but yes, production has gone down too, which is expected to happen as we're a developed nation, and can't compete on cost with the developing nations. We can't do anything about China growing into a massive manufacturing superhub, and loads of others will likely follow suit. We don't have the natural resources to stay being a major manufacturer, and I don't think people will be up for being paid £1 an hour. Our energy demand from the grid will continue to trend down.
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Our ongoing conversion to Renewable energy is one of the UK’s few success stories of the last 20 years.

But like every new technology it takes many years to fully develop.

Offshore wind is more reliable than onshore wind but we had to learn onshore first.

The grid is being converted to suit the new methods, there is currently a massive bottleneck between Scotland and England which means we can’t make the most of windy weather.

Storage will be a game changer and is on its way, 35 GW of storage facilities are in the planning pipeline.
 
Our ongoing conversion to Renewable energy is one of the UK’s few success stories of the last 20 years.

But like every new technology it takes many years to fully develop.

Offshore wind is more reliable than onshore wind but we had to learn onshore first.

The grid is being converted to suit the new methods, there is currently a massive bottleneck between Scotland and England which means we can’t make the most of windy weather.

Storage will be a game changer and is on its way, 35 GW of storage facilities are in the planning pipeline.
Yeah, I agree, we've done well on that front compared to others (we've paid for it mind, not the government), but I suppose we do have a lot of usable coasts compared to others. We shouldn't be blocking private onshore renewables though, not where they have a low strike price if feeding the grid, and should let local areas go largely independent for renewables, as it's just allowing a monopoly if we don't really. Nuclear shouldn't be tied to local supplies mind, that expense should be shared nationally. i.e Hartlepool have to deal with having a nuclear site on their doorstep, but shouldn't have to pay high rates, for what comes out of it. That's due for decommissioning in 2024, wouldn't be surprised if that gets extended until it's replaced (at Hartelpool or elsewhere).

Offshore is more reliable, more locations for it too, but twice the cost per unit I think. Suppose that balances out as more reliable is often more expensive, but offshore means less impact on the environment internally (other than the grid connection, which can be more than 10-20 miles away, once it gets to shore), and less for people to complain about.

There's an offshore cable link between the Edinburgh area and Seaham planned, which is now at tender stage for the onshore aspect (to smaller companies like mine), I had some tender info sent through in August. This normally means things are going ahead or being accelerated. I've not been given a program mind, but probably wouldn't be able to share that (or other main details) anyway, as the tender info is confidential. There will be a few schemes like this in the pipeline, I'm sure.

Yes, storage is key, but if we can get demand down to 20GW (or even less) by 2030, it will be easier. By then loads of people will have home storage options, which should be able to even out the daily peaks and troughs, if we really incentivised charging up off-peak, to use on-peak etc. We could even put out alerts or national incentives to charge up cars and personal storage, ahead of the very low output times (maybe a few times a year). This would scare the crap out of people mind, but it really shouldn't.

35GW of storage could run 17.5GW for two days, on it's own, but obviously the nuclear and biomass, energy from waste etc won't turn off, and all the renewables won't stop altogether. We would only need maybe 5GW of top-up, per day, so that could last a week I suppose, which is long enough. at 2.5GW top up it's nearly two weeks etc.
 
35GW of storage could run 17.5GW for two days, on it's own, but obviously the nuclear and biomass, energy from waste etc won't turn off, and all the renewables won't stop altogether. We would only need maybe 5GW of top-up, per day, so that could last a week I suppose, which is long enough. at 2.5GW top up it's nearly two weeks etc.

I'm assuming that HC actually means 35 GWh which would equate to slightly over 1 hour at current load.
 
I'm assuming that HC actually means 35 GWh which would equate to slightly over 1 hour at current load.
Yeah, I was thinking it could maybe maintain that for a day (think I was wrong on that), as that's a hell of a lot of storage of course.

Be interesting to see what's proposed, I've not looked into that.
 
I'm more concerned about a long-term strategy if I'm honest.

Our parliamentary system doesn't provide that, short-term gains for future electoral success. Energy companies prioritise profit which will often lead to short-term thinking (particularly in light of the "threat" from carbon reducing technologies).

If that is best served with nationalisation then so be it, but an independent body to oversee long-term planning (seperate from government) might reap rewards?
 
I'm more concerned about a long-term strategy if I'm honest.

Our parliamentary system doesn't provide that, short-term gains for future electoral success. Energy companies prioritise profit which will often lead to short-term thinking (particularly in light of the "threat" from carbon reducing technologies).

If that is best served with nationalisation then so be it, but an independent body to oversee long-term planning (seperate from government) might reap rewards?
Totally agree on this.

We need something which operates for decades, which changes of who is in charge should not impact, the tooing and froing does not help at all. Same can be said of a few departments though, consistency is often the key.

Of course, year by year the situation may change, and more viable, efficient, cheaper alternatives will become available, so we would need to be able to adapt some changes. A panel of experts in the field, with zero outside influence of any of the parties, would probably be a good idea.

I'm not sure if Nationalisation is the answer if it gives the keys to whoever is in charge at that time, for them to pull the plug or go in a different direction to suit their own pocket. I don't mind it being private and them making a small, pre-agreed profit/ rate, if it means we accelerate doing it. I'd rather we did it at large scale, and quickly than drip-feeding it with public funds, and it taking a lot longer. All the building of it (even through private investment/ ownership) really helps the construction sector too (and national growth), and employs a lot of people.

It's a little like why I don't mind HS2 costing whatever it does (or any other infrastructure scheme), if the budget has escalated then the work involved has likely escalated, which means more work for more people, it's not just going down the drain etc. Providing money is not going out the door in companies using larger margins, making excuses to charge more, or larger pay-offs to landowners etc.
 
Yeah, I was thinking it could maybe maintain that for a day (think I was wrong on that), as that's a hell of a lot of storage of course.

Be interesting to see what's proposed, I've not looked into that.

As I said earlier in this thread or the previous one about Starmer we are currently consuming approximately 720 GWh per day.

How many days storage should be installed bearing in mind that between 17th & 22nd of December last year wind produced less than 48 GWh each day and barely reached over 240 GWh/day at anytime during the year? (I'll not mention the day when wind output was only 0.14% of total installed capacity)
 
Depends on the cost-benefit, but a couple of days would be good, but even a day or half a day would go a long way to evening out demand, for the vast majority of the year.

Most of the storage in place is seemingly conventional battery storage (linked to solar farms), which is extremely efficient but certainly not the answer to national backup at large scale. Battery storage makes sense when Wind and Solar even at max will not cover gas, to the point where it can be switched off.

The lowest gas use average for the week (for a normal week), over the last year, was still covering 25% of demand, and it's typically 30-50%, on "normal" days, within the next 10 years we should be aiming to use no gas (on normal days). If we have to use 40%-70% for a few days or weeks a year, then so be it, better than using 45% every day. Once the gas is covered, then start to cover the other more expensive generation methods.

If we get to a point where gas is not used on 90% of days, then on some days we have a cheap excess, which we can put into less efficient storage. This only makes sense when you have the cheap excess (it certainly doesn't make sense now, as it would never get used).

Gas is probably not likely to go below 10p per kWh again, in the near future (it may long term, but we shouldn't need it then as a main source). If we can get Wind and Solar for 4p, then even at 50% efficiency of storage, we're basically putting in 2 units of 4p kWh (total cost 8p), and getting 1 kWh out, so costing 8p kWh effective, so it's still 20% cheaper than Gas. Pumped storage isn't great, but still ~75% efficient. So at 4p per kWh in, it's coming back out at around 5p per kWh, half the price of gas.

District heating could be good too for winter, linked to large premises, basically use wind and excess wind, to charge this up, so when wind does drop, it can still maintain a good temperature, or mean the grid gas is topping up from a much higher base. Heat exchangers back to electric can work too, but less efficient, but this sector is really advancing.

Like I said, we've always got the gas tap as a backup (we need more gas storage too of course), and will need to scale up other around-the-clock/ on demand renewables, and at least maintain nuclear output, and maybe increase it, if it can be done cheaper.
 
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I've found this a fascinating thread. It is an example of how informative and thought provoking this board can be.

AndyW and Bosco are obviously hugely knowledgable, if not exactly completely aligned.
Their professional banter covers lots of the scope for debate around this complex and crucial subject; but not all of it.

Our solution obviously needs to involve reducing demand through cutting waste and increasing efficiency of usage.
It also needs to involve switching to renewables as quickly as possible and using cleanest fossil fuels in the transition.
It needs to be affordable, but completely reliable in meeting demand.
It will require therefore multiple generating methods in the generation mix and focus on realistic storage, distribution and waste infrastructure
It will require some of the best brains working long term together, open to the latest technology, free from political ideology and the worst of the free market vultures.
It is clear to me that a single term of a single Government will not get their arms round this. And there desperately needs to be continuity. Yet there equally desperately needs to be accountability. I don't see the private sector providing this without being exploited/compromised.
I don't trust the Private Sector not to exploit and compromise the right approach.
Sadly I don't see Government in this country being skilled enough to both pull it off and make it politically neutral.
A bit like the generation question then, it seems like we will need a mix of solutions from Government and regulated private sector.
 
For those who are interested there is currently a Government consultation document out called REMA (Review of Electricity Market Arrangements) due to close 10 October and this has a lot of detail on where things are heading. If you Google it is fairly easy to find on the Government web site. It’s 130 pages but worth having a scan through for background information.
 
I've found this a fascinating thread. It is an example of how informative and thought provoking this board can be.

AndyW and Bosco are obviously hugely knowledgable, if not exactly completely aligned.
Their professional banter covers lots of the scope for debate around this complex and crucial subject; but not all of it.

Our solution obviously needs to involve reducing demand through cutting waste and increasing efficiency of usage.
It also needs to involve switching to renewables as quickly as possible and using cleanest fossil fuels in the transition.
It needs to be affordable, but completely reliable in meeting demand.
It will require therefore multiple generating methods in the generation mix and focus on realistic storage, distribution and waste infrastructure
It will require some of the best brains working long term together, open to the latest technology, free from political ideology and the worst of the free market vultures.
It is clear to me that a single term of a single Government will not get their arms round this. And there desperately needs to be continuity. Yet there equally desperately needs to be accountability. I don't see the private sector providing this without being exploited/compromised.
I don't trust the Private Sector not to exploit and compromise the right approach.
Sadly I don't see Government in this country being skilled enough to both pull it off and make it politically neutral.
A bit like the generation question then, it seems like we will need a mix of solutions from Government and regulated private sector.

It is clear to me that our government has taken the short-term boost to income for the least hassle and handed the job of extracting our natural resources to private companies. The simple solution would have been to allow these companies to do the production as they are and to pay them a fee for doing it. Aka, we own the resources and we pay a company to extract them for us. We take on all the risk in terms of the fluctuations in wholesale price but the primary reason for extraction is for our people to use, not to make someone a huge profit. For producers it is a guaranteed fee. They won't make massive profits but they won't make massive losses either. The same model can apply to fossil fuels or wind/solar in that we simply pay a company to extract wind/solar and convert it. Fixed fee, reliable profits, low risk.

Completely different situation but I would also apply the same thing to housebuilders. Instead of giving them land, not building until the prices have gone up and then pocketing huge profits I would pay them for their building. Council owns the land until it is sold to the buyer. Any increases in value are the councils to spend on local services instead of extra profits for developers.

Too often the thing that is most valuable (land, natural resources) etc is almost given away to mega-corps and it is the customer/taxpayer that ends up footing the bill for the inevitable huge price increase of finite resources.
 
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