TeessideCleveland
Well-known member
Why is Keane not booked there?
Deliberate hand ball in the penalty area
- Thread starter TeessideCleveland
- Start date
Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
Probably because it wasn't deliberate.
TeessideCleveland
Well-known member
Sticking your arm out to deflect a cross looks deliberate - and if not why was a penalty given?
Everton shocking again - though Liverpool should have had a sending off too
Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
Try slowing down without doing that, not even close to being deliberate.
Paulroddam7
Well-known member
I don’t think deliberate handball is automatically a yellow anyway
BobendBert
Well-known member
Putting to one side the noise around the edge of the handball law, at its heart the fundamental remains the same - for handball to be an offence it has to be deliberate ergo not every handball is a caution. It’s often misunderstood is that.
Zoophonic
Well-known member
No think you have missed the new interpretation of the handball law.
“a handball in an “unnatural position” can be called, even if it is not done deliberately. It is usually not a handball if: The ball makes contact with the arm/hand in a “natural position.”
BobendBert
Well-known member
I haven’t missed it. I’m a current referee. It’s what I meant when I said put to one side the noise around the edges of the law. The point is that handball being deliberate isn’t by default a caution because deliberate handball is at the heart of the offence.
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Rofesleg
Well-known member
I'm not surprised there are confusing decisions if that's the sort of stuff refs are thinking about.
Scrote
Well-known member
The confusion comes from pundits using the phrase "deliberate handball" when talking about yellow cards - and that goes back to at least the beginning of the Premier League and Sky coverage - if not before. Ex-players not understanding the rules of the game they played accounts for almost all of the confusion amongst fans.
FishofContemplation
Well-known member
It’s pretty much always down to sloppy language used by the pundits. As the earlier poster said, deliberate handball is still always handball, and is at the heart of the handball law, but there are now just certain circumstances where an action that is short of deliberate in the strict sense can also give rise to a handball offence. Deliberate handball is not as such a yellow. The card would be given for “unsporting behaviour”, and usually under the subheading of “handles the ball to interfere with or stop a promising attack”.
BobendBert
Well-known member
What are you talking about? I’m explaining that ‘deliberate handball’ isn’t always a caution because ‘deliberate’ is at the heart of the offence and not every handball is a yellow. It’s not difficult.
As others have said, a handball simply being deliberate is not enough to make it a cautionable offence.
The IFAB has been perfectly clear about this down the years and have even included wording at different times to remind referees of this.
In the early to mid 2000's for example, the following admonition was included in the laws:
The law on what actually constitutes a handling offence may have changed, but this principle regarding deliberate handball not being an automatic caution, still stands.
The IFAB has been perfectly clear about this down the years and have even included wording at different times to remind referees of this.
In the early to mid 2000's for example, the following admonition was included in the laws:
The law on what actually constitutes a handling offence may have changed, but this principle regarding deliberate handball not being an automatic caution, still stands.
Rofesleg
Well-known member
Maybe I just struggled with your syntax but your post wasn't clear to me. I didn't see any reference to a caution.
Or maybe I'm too thick to be a referee.
But never mind.
He was clearly saying that the laws have always been that for a handball to be a handball you had to handle it deliberately. The laws as they are now have changed slightly but only to the point where they are making an objective decision on deliberate instead of subjective. E.g. hands being in an unnatural position are there to deliberately handle the ball. I think the only time it isn't a case of deliberate/deemed to be deliberate is when it leads to a goal and any contact with the arm automatically means the goal is disallowed.
The new rules/interpretations are dreadful. The original rulings recognised the fact that people have arms and they move around when performing an athletic sport and occasionally the ball comes into contact with the arm and not the other way around. Ball to hand vs hand to ball was such a simpler and superior rule.
I can't stand seeing matches decided by a penalty for an accidental handball.
BobendBert
Well-known member
It’s in my very first post just a few up from here. In fact it’s clearly the very point of my post, as everyone else has been able to recognise and understand. Im not sure why you felt the sarcastic tone of your replies to be necessary. I can’t comment on your ability to be a referee, only on your ability to read posts on here properly. Must do better.
Rofesleg
Well-known member
I didn't understand your post. Everybody else obviously did so I don't know why you're so bothered about an individual self confessed thicko struggling with it.
Where was my sarcasm by the way?
BobendBert
Well-known member
Here:
But no worries. You didn’t understand. Hopefully it’s all clear now.
Here:
But no worries. You didn’t understand. Hopefully it’s all clear now.
Rofesleg
Well-known member
No sarcasm there, I meant what I said.
I thought Zoophonic was discussing whether handball had to be deliberate to be an offence, regardless of whether or not it also results in a caution.
This was the snippet of conversation I was referring to.
As a trained referee, the "noise around the edges of the law" and understanding the "heart of an offence" might make perfect sense to you.
But to me it isn't a straight forward thought process.
I thought it explained why a lot of fans don't understand why some decisions are made. Because I doubt most are considering the noise around the edges and the heart of the offence.
Apparently everybody else understood you perfectly well so it is obviously just me.
I have admitted I didn't understand the way you had worded your posts, or possibly would struggle to cope with the intricacies of thought a referee needs.
I'm not sure why you are getting all uppity and defensive. I'm the dafty.
I thought Zoophonic was discussing whether handball had to be deliberate to be an offence, regardless of whether or not it also results in a caution.
This was the snippet of conversation I was referring to.
As a trained referee, the "noise around the edges of the law" and understanding the "heart of an offence" might make perfect sense to you.
But to me it isn't a straight forward thought process.
I thought it explained why a lot of fans don't understand why some decisions are made. Because I doubt most are considering the noise around the edges and the heart of the offence.
Apparently everybody else understood you perfectly well so it is obviously just me.
I have admitted I didn't understand the way you had worded your posts, or possibly would struggle to cope with the intricacies of thought a referee needs.
I'm not sure why you are getting all uppity and defensive. I'm the dafty.
BobendBert
Well-known member
I’m not getting defensive or uppity! Just give us a kiss and we will forget all about it.